31-12-2004 06:51									#1
	Deity Strategy Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I've reviewed the two Deity Strategies posted in the Great Library, but they do not have what I am looking for.

Perhaps a year ago, I believe I read a long thread that discussed the early Deity building possibilities with a very distinct building order...2 warriors vs. 1 warrior and 1 horse, when to build a temple, how many settlers to crank out, etc.

I am not able to locate that thread via the search engine. If someone knows of this thread, would you please point me in the right direction? Thanks in advance.

	31-12-2004 21:51									#2
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I don't remember which thread you have in mind, but if you are willing to improve your gameplay at deity level, I would advise you to read the 2 guides that you can find on top of this forum, namely solo's "Early Landing Games Strategy Guide" and Peaster's "Early Conquest Guide".

	25-03-2005 23:14									#3
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I think he is looking for the more traditional diety strategies. That guy who is into conquest, can't remember name, posted one.

	26-03-2005 01:51									#4
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The most useful guide to learning Deity, for me at least, was DaveV's guide to ICS. It has been in the GL for several years. It is fairly specific about what to do, to grow a large civ with minimal problems (but it doesn't advise temples). You may decide later you don't like ICS, but I would still recommend this as a way to start succeeding at Deity.

Thank you, La F, for the plug. You will get your usual share of the profits

	26-03-2005 04:51									#5
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I have tried ICS, but didn't much like it. I have been able to win at diety, but was looking for a different approach. TCO is correct; I was looking for more traditional diety strategies.

	26-03-2005 12:03									#6
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I go along with LF - the EL guide and the EQ guide give you the goods which ever end-game you're looking for. If you want a single line guide, follow the advice I saw posted a few years back (by SG?)

When in doubt build a caravan; if you're not in doubt, build a caravan anyway.

RJM at Sleeper's

	26-03-2005 12:57									#7
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Dave V had something.

	26-03-2005 13:57									#8
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quote: Originally posted by granite00 I have tried ICS, but didn't much like it. I have been able to win at diety, but was looking for a different approach. TCO is correct; I was looking for more traditional diety strategies.

Noticed there was a three year gap in your posts so, welcome back!!

1--What did you dislike about ICS??
2--What approach did you already try??
3--What do you mean by "traditional"??

Or, put another way, what would you like to accomplish?? (conquest, spaceship, big honkin cities, trade empire...)

With a little clarification, a better response will be possible. Also, you mentioned that you have you looked at the Great Library under Deity->Strategies. Matthew and Drago have good basic approaches outlined. Knowing what is lacking in their discussions will help shape a better response, hopefully.

In general, the first nut to crack vis Deity is what to do about Unhappiness. Most of what is offered revolves around that question. You build a warrior first so that the city will be stable when it goes to size two. Strict ICS was developed to solve the problem of city size causing unhappiness. The general rule is to build only what you will NEED in the near term.

If the food box will fill in "X" turns, make sure you have another warrior ready by then, or very soon thereafter (using an elvis). And don't spend 40 shields on a temple when you are still grinding out settlers, as the temple will not be necessary after the settler causes the population to drop. Also, why build a 40 shield, 1g per turn maintenance drain where a 10 shield warrior will do the trick. 10 shield warriors are especially cool if you later build Leo's Workbench and they "become" 40 shield Riflemen.

What combination and order of warriors, or other mil-units, + settlers will depend on the city and where you have placed its workers. If the food box will not fill before a second unit is needed for garrison duty, then build warrior -> settler. Otherwise, warrior -> warrior -> settler. Once the first settler spits out you must calculate whether you can finish a second settler before the foodbox fills again or whether a second mil-unit should come next. Eventually, you will have so many cities that a new city will need a mil-unit immediately as it will start with a red or black citizen. What to do is like the weather--sometimes the best you can say is "it depends."

Personally, I think it is better to build Hanging Gardens before temples and Mike's Chapel before colosseums. They effect all your cities and they do not incur ongoing maintenance costs.

Hope this is helpful....

Monk

	26-03-2005 20:00									#9
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you can run over with a mil unit with the settler. Eventually, you may need insta-temples.

	26-03-2005 20:01									#10
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you can disband a mil unit and then buy the insta temple. when founding with insta-blackies.

	26-03-2005 23:53									#11
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Yep. Two excellent illustrations of how to implement the bare bones point about new cities eventually needing happiness support. Thanks!!

But why two separate posts?? And while we're about it, what did you mean by 'more traditional deity strats'??

Monk

	27-03-2005 00:39									#12
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I just think of stuff after I've already posted. Got a problem with me, Jack? *looks tough*

I think there was a general feeling about how to beat diety that most people had come up with in c.1997-99. And it had to do with making lots of cities and then doing a war in the late game. Single city games pushed the thinking a lot and showed how spaceship wins could be done and how trade/science could be manipulated very adeptly. Others have shown how early conquest can be done and one does not need to wait for modern military units to go crazy.

	27-03-2005 02:25									#13
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No problem, really, and I appreciate your answer. There are so many ways to play Civ2, all of them interesting in their own way. Knowing what to answer to the topic really does depend on what in general the player wants to do.

I came to Civ2 and these Fora in '99 after years of playing Strategic Conquest. I was fascinated by the Spaceship side of the game and the building of strong "Civilizations", because that was something new. So, traditional for me means big sprawling empires with many heavily developed size 20 cities that are "mostly" peace loving scientists reaching for the stars. There is still a great deal of fondness for those 50-shield per turn cities cranking out the freights. What fun that was!!

Get to Monarchy -> Trade -> Monotheism, building The Gardens, Marco Polo, and Mike's, while laying down cities, trading for techs and maps. From this beginning, one can decide which fork to take next, depending on the map and other variables. It is pretty hard not to have a good time.

Monk

	27-03-2005 05:07									#14
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Dear Monk,

Noticed there was a three year gap in your posts so, welcome back!! ..............thanks. I do much more reading than writing here. I have taken periodic breaks from Civ2, but this game keeps me comin' back. Never tried Civ3...always meant to, but now that Civ4 is on the way, maybe I should wait for that.

1--What did you dislike about ICS?? ..............it got a little monotonous for me. I built something like 80 cities and was overwhelmed. Perhaps I should have stopped at a lower number.

2--What approach did you already try?? .............I've done well in OCC, but that can get a bit boring too. ELG just doesn't sound good to me. OCC and ELG seem like they require too much of a cookbook approach. One OCC game seems a lot like the others I'd already played.

3--What do you mean by "traditional"?? ............I mostly like the more peaceful, large population per city, sprawling empires. Strong enough to repel the jealous AI later in the game, but not enough to set out conquering the whole world.

Or, put another way, what would you like to accomplish?? (conquest, spaceship, big honkin cities, trade empire...) ................I mostly like the big cities leading to the space ship.

Matthew and Drago have good basic approaches outlined...................I have read them both. I was originally looking for a past post that dealt more specifically with the early game. It discussed pros and cons of what units to build early on. 2 warr vs. 1 warr and a horse vs. 1 phalanx, etc. The general opinion, I think, is 2 warr. For me, 2 warr never seem to survive early barb attacks. This has led me to build a phalanx instead.

In general, the first nut to crack vis Deity is what to do about Unhappiness. Most of what is offered revolves around that question..............I usually opt to go after the HG at the expense of building the Pyramids and Colossus. I want them all, but that usually is not possible.

Also, why build a 40 shield, 1g per turn maintenance drain where a 10 shield warrior will do the trick. 10 shield warriors are especially cool if you later build Leo's Workbench and they "become" 40 shield Riflemen............very good points. I like Leo's too. Still, I have doubts about the early game strengths of the 10 shield warriors.

What combination and order of warriors, or other mil-units, + settlers will depend on the city and where you have placed its workers. If the food box will not fill before a second unit is needed for garrison duty, then build warrior -> settler. Otherwise, warrior -> warrior -> settler. Once the first settler spits out you must calculate whether you can finish a second settler before the foodbox fills again or whether a second mil-unit should come next. Eventually, you will have so many cities that a new city will need a mil-unit immediately as it will start with a red or black citizen. What to do is like the weather--sometimes the best you can say is "it depends."....................thanks for this discussion. I will have to do more planning and thinking about the future of each individual city.

Hope this is helpful...............very much. Again, thanks to all who have contributed to this thread.

	27-03-2005 12:00									#15
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About the warriors dying vs. barbs, most people use horsies, which can beat any of the early barb units (barb archers get 311 ADM (question: anybody tried modding their defense? what happens? and hp / fp? does he still ose that defense point? I guess this shoul dbe posted in the League, but it came up here.. maybe I will), and they only get attack bonuses (not defense bonuses) due to terrain. Besides, you can later hunt the barb leaders.

That's why I often have some settlers roading early on, delaying growth in their home cities to avoid having to use elvi for a couple of turns and providing a much appreciated public work. (besides, more trade is never a bad idea)

	27-03-2005 16:50									#16
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granite00 - I think you have confused the use of warriors in the early game - Monk is advocating using them for happiness control, not defence.

Warriors are not defensive units against barbs unless you have only one city (in that case all barb attacks fail). If you have fewer than a certain number of cities (I think ?? 7 ??) you will get a defensive bonus versus barb attacks, which could lead to a vet warrior fortified in a city on a river actually surviving for a turn or two.

But the real point here is that Monk (among others) is essentially recommending playing with **no defensive units** in the early game.

Barb defence consists of the following strategies:
(1) explore a lot so you can see them coming
(2) plan to rush a horse and attack them first
(3) after Writing defend with one diplomat strategically placed
(4) if all the above are of no avail, empty the city and pay tribute
(5) and if they sack your city it really isn't so bad - you can bribe their units to become a NONE army, and bribe back the city itself at you lesiure.

There are other seemingly counter-intuitive strategies in the opening including the size 1 settler strategy (your only city will not disband upon building a settler at size 1, so you can save part of your food box by growing slightly less quickly). My personal key to efficient early civ building is as follows:

** no roads before Trade**

This is pretty radical. But every time I try it I get my civ going faster, usually shaving off 4 turns by the monarchy switch.

	27-03-2005 22:32									#17
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Grigor
Triple-plus-excellent!!!

Thanks for catching that and making such a good case.

granite00
I have played many a game, with delightful results, with no or almost no units in the original pod of cities...after switching to Republic. The initial units are for martial law and when that is no longer relevant, they are disbanded.

This strategy works in Single Player. Against other humans it would be folly, but against the AI, Grigor's points show the way.

Also, I don't research Horse early in the game, usually. One can get them from Huts if you explore extensively in the openning phase. That means before founding the first city and up to the first tech from huts, after that, you should wait on more hut tipping until you have Monarchy. Getting to Monarchy soonest is the first priority.

Monk

	28-03-2005 07:01									#18
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After posting that dissertation on skimpy defence, I played the March 2005 OCC game. I got hammered by barbs and lost two settlers. My lone city did, as advertised, survive, but I had no development and my game was slowed down tremendously.

So the choice of defensive methods depends, as does much in this world, on one's risk tolerance.

	28-03-2005 10:31									#19
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Grigor,
Your point about not having any defensive units really surprised me, but I recall many games where barbs rarely appeared until much later. However, running into an aggressive AI bent on challenging you is much like what you experienced in the March 2005 OCC game...luck of the draw. I haven't played many games where I was the only civ on a continent.

One point I failed to make clear in earlier posts is that in my quest for defensive units, those units are always intended to serve as militia for "happiness control".

Have you truly had much luck in using a diplomat against barbs? I would think it would be difficult having the dip in the right place at the right time.

Regarding no roads before trade, don't roads help in getting new settlers out to the edges of your expanding empire quicker?

	28-03-2005 19:40									#20
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granite00 -

The best defence against the AI is a good offence. Horse are vastly better than phalanx unless you have enough rivers. The point is to separate your needs. A defensive unit is best placed in a defensive stronghold, which is not necessarily your city location. Happiness control is best executed 10 shields at a time.

Regarding no roads before trade, I get trade by 1750, so the size of the empire is rarely an issue. Until the civ is larger than 6 cities, roads are a doubtful benefit. The 2 extra road-building turns are essentially 2 turns with slow city growth and lower science, and before Monarchy that is rarely a good call. Exceptions of course occur - for instance a start with no science squares.

	28-03-2005 22:39									#21
	An Interesting Twist on Defense Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

solo showed the way on this point...

Of all the possible ways to defend it turns out that the most efficient is by using Marco Polo/contact to massage AI attitudes. If you are the Supreme Civ and you keep the nearby AI Receptive or better (sometimes Uncooperative, too!), the AI will not attack your city even if the city is empty of defenders. This fits well with the previous discussion about disbanding supported units after switching to Republic so that most of your cities do not have defenders.

(This does not work -v- Barbs and applies to games using v2.42.)

The diplomat defense rests on your having explored (revealed) the surrounding map so that you can see any Barb spawns. If an existing dip is not close enough to do the job, then you rush one at the point of danger and bribe Barbs to act as defenders. And...Grigor's point 5 is very well taken. Losing a city to Barbs may be a very good thing, depending on the other factors.

Monk

	11-04-2005 03:24									#22
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granite00, I think Grigor has pretty much completely stated the answer. Exploring gives you a heads-up when the barbs are coming your way, and then you buy a horse or a dip for "defense."

N35t0r, I'm curious what you meant by "[barb archers] only get attack bonuses (not defense bonuses) due to terrain". I know that they have defensive strength of only 1. I know that, depending on game level, they have an attack bonus (or penalty), which is x1.5 at deity. Are you saying that defensive terrain gives them no bonus?

	11-04-2005 19:23									#23
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I think he was just referring to their normal defense of 1 instead of the 2 given players/ai archers.

	11-04-2005 22:39									#24
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quote: Originally posted by debeest N35t0r, I'm curious what you meant by "[barb archers] only get attack bonuses (not defense bonuses) due to terrain". I know that they have defensive strength of only 1. I know that, depending on game level, they have an attack bonus (or penalty), which is x1.5 at deity. Are you saying that defensive terrain gives them no bonus?

Difficulty. Not terrain, difficulty.

In deity, barb units get a +50% to attack IIRC, which has gone up from an attack penalty in Chieftain... while they do not get any defense mods... (this makes it better to defend from them on the earlier levels...) which is, I think, why most people who are moving up the difficulty scale don't realise how useful to be the attacker is - Especially early on.

	13-08-2005 06:06									#25
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When they refer to the Great Library at this beginning of this thread where paradigm forming strategies have been stored, where might I find this information?

	13-08-2005 10:18									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Senethro When they refer to the Great Library at this beginning of this thread where paradigm forming strategies have been stored, where might I find this information?

The starting point is the initial post in the thread two above this one which has a link to the original index and to a revised index. After that you just follow the links that interest you. Enjoy.

RJM at Sleeper's

	17-08-2005 23:38									#27
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Look for the TOPped thread "Great Library Index #2" by SlowThinker in this forum.