01-01-2005 23:49									#31
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Already covered your first point in my previous post.


And the second point WAS discussed, by the Sec. of the Army himself. Rumsfeld completely ignored his Generals months before the election, who ALL kept telling him he needed several hundred thousand soldiers specifically for the occupation. HE was the one to push down the orders to the Pentagon, like I said, originally wanting 50,000 soldiers to do the job. Franks and Powell convinced him to up the number but still caved in in the end.

This was well known within the Pentagon, where everyone knew that the invasion would be cake but the occupation rough.

Sorry DanS but that is fact and not a matter of opinion.

Last edited by Ted Striker on 02-01-2005 at 00:45

	01-01-2005 23:53									#32
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by dannubis if you see that ww2 was the last non imperialistic war the US fought,

Why would you see that? Simply because it helped your country?

	01-01-2005 23:53									#33
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

overwhelming force was not even used for the invasion. supply lines were overstretched and most losses occurred from ambushes of support troops (the tail and not the teeth of the army). if overwhelming force was used, these types of losses would not have occurred.

	01-01-2005 23:55									#34
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

That's a good point pchang.

	01-01-2005 23:55									#35
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I think the main problem is that the Americans see war as a way to decisively settle things once and for all.

The three conflicts which are the most symbolically important for Americans are the Second World War, the American Revolution and the American Civil War. These conflicts were decided once and for all the course history was to take. There was no Second American Civil War, no American-British war in the 19th Century, no return of Nazism.

Even the Cold War (whilst more of a confrontation) was decisively won.

Consequently, Americans think that if you really, really, REALLY want to defeat something, you declare war on it. Hence the "War on Terror".

Imagine a locked door labelled 'Terrorism' which two people named 'Europe' and 'America' have to get through. Whilst Europe would probably look for the key, America would try to kick the door down - the decisive route, versus looking for a key that might be impossible to find. But the kick might not work - and it might damage the lock, so that if Europe does find the key, it won't work.

	01-01-2005 23:56									#36
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

We still have overwhelming force at the ready to just nuke and pave the place, like the Russians did in Grozny. Again, our ideology stops us from doing what could be done.

	01-01-2005 23:58									#37
	Got spare money?

quote: I think the main problem is that the Americans see war as a way to decisively settle things once and for all.

This is not a problem, let alone a main problem.

	01-01-2005 23:59									#38
	Got spare money?

So are you trying to make the point that our responses are somehow better than other people's because we haven't nuked places?

	02-01-2005 00:02									#39
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I didn't think this discussion was about right and wrong, Ted. Rather, it was a discussion about what Americans perceive and do and why they perceive and do it. Spending hundreds of billions of dollars on smart weapons was driven by American politics and military doctrine. Spiffor proposed that Americans had a guilt complex, and I was pointing out what seemed to me to be a more realistic explanation.

	02-01-2005 00:05									#40
	Got spare money?

Well, I would think being excessively warlike is not a good thing.

	02-01-2005 00:06									#41
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Again, I don't think that's the point of this thread.

	02-01-2005 00:07									#42
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

In case anyone is interested in how terrible Rumsfeld mismanaged Iraq, this clip tells the whole story:


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/front.../pentagon/view/

	02-01-2005 00:08									#43
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by DanS Again, I don't think that's the point of this thread.

You don't.

	02-01-2005 00:10									#44
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by DanS This is not a problem, let alone a main problem.

Why not?

	02-01-2005 00:11									#45
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by DanS Again, I don't think that's the point of this thread.

He's trying to jack the thread so that is the point of the thread.

	02-01-2005 00:12									#46
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I wasn't aware that the point of thread had been so narrowly defined.

Nice copout though.

	02-01-2005 00:17									#47
	Inflate your Upload Space

Let's make one of these lame polls for every country in the world.

	02-01-2005 00:18									#48
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Why not?

The vast majority of America's wars indeed have decided things once and for all. Even Vietnam decided things once and for all with regard to that country. That's why Gulf War I was so unsatisfying to many Americans -- even to those like myself who didn't support the war in the first place. Your analogy about keys and doors is strained at best.

	02-01-2005 00:19									#49
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

OK - Poll - is France a weenie like country?

	02-01-2005 00:19									#50
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I think France is much more warlike than most other European countries.

	02-01-2005 00:25									#51
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Dauphin At the time Pearl Harbour wasn't part of the US. Statehood had been refused a few years beforehand. (?)

Hawaii wasn't a state but it was officially a US territory much like every state (other then the first 13) were at one time or another.

	02-01-2005 00:49									#52
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Why would you see that? Simply because it helped your country?

no simply because at the time you guys entered the second world war you hadn't de facto a superstatus among the other nations of the world.

ww2 was a war in which you had to defend your country

korea, cuba, vietnam were wars in which you had to seccure political foreign interests of your country

iraq is a war in which you seccure foreign natural resources for your country. the whole war on terror thing is just a masquerade to hide the latter, as has already been demonstrated on multiple occasions.

	02-01-2005 00:49									#53
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The "no's" are up to 22.5%.

ACK!

	02-01-2005 00:50									#54
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by DanS I think France is much more warlike than most other European countries.

you can say that again...

but so is every other country in the world which was once powerful enough to claim dominance in the international political landscape

	02-01-2005 00:51									#55
	Increase Your PM Length

Luckily apolyton is not indicative of any real world situation.. making the poll useless.

	02-01-2005 00:53									#56
	Re: Is the US a warlike country? Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor To many, the military is also very formative. Many posters here (despite 'Poly being far more liberal than the bulk of the US) identify strongly with their military past. I don't remember even one non-American poster sporting its military past as a main aspect of their identity.

The Americans that were in the military, like myself, were, for the most part, volunteers.

Most people in other countries that served in the military, are required to serve in the military.

When you choose to do something it becomes part of your identity.

ACK!

	02-01-2005 01:03									#57
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I voted no instinctively. And I think Spiffor was a bit weak on presenting the arguments for why the US isn't a warlike country.

After some thinking about adding some arguments, now I"m worried. Are we a warlike country?

I was going to make a case that unlike other nations, America doesn't war to conquest. Only for defense or to protect friends, allies and human rights (generally). Then when factoring in the Mexican War, the Spanish-American War and all the Indian Wars.... eh, I'm not so sure anymore.

Then the factor of how truely divided this country is over the Iraq War, and how many of us are genuinely opposed to it would be a good reason. However at most (though not all) points there has been majority support for the war. Whether by deception or genuine support, I dunno. One point Spiffor noted about our support for the military in this country does factor in. Unlike other nations who are ashamed of their military, we are quite proud and supportive here, myself included. I do know several people who opposed the war going into it, but once it began and our boys were in danger they felt it was their duty to be supportive of the whole endevor. Interesting. So then the question in my mind is can we count this kind of support as genuine warlikeness or just a moral sense of duty to our soldiers in harm's way. Or is there s difference? Perhaps, as Spiff suggests, that moral duty makes us warlike.

Perhaps the best argument against a warlike America would be a comparison between other cultures at other periods in history. Is America's view of military power and exercise of it considering its absolute dominance in the globe significantly different from other's? I'd argue it is absolutely. Compare the 1800's British to the late 1900's Americans. The Brits used their power to enrich themselves, America uses its power to protect others or ourselves. Even misguided wars (in my opinion) like Vietnam and Iraq were done primarily for altuistic or defensive reasons at great cost to ourselves.

Perhaps we shouldn't be asking whether America is warlike or not, but rather how does America use war?

	02-01-2005 01:10									#58
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by DanS The vast majority of America's wars indeed have decided things once and for all. Even Vietnam decided things once and for all with regard to that country. That's why Gulf War I was so unsatisfying to many Americans -- even to those like myself who didn't support the war in the first place. Your analogy about keys and doors is strained at best.

You're basically agreeing with my observation that Americans think that war is decisive.

But the reason I think that American' views on the decisiveness of wars are a problem is because they are wrong. There is nothing special about America that guarantees swift, total victories. It's all been a matter of good historical fortune, and that is no guarantee of future success.

	02-01-2005 01:28									#59
	Increase Your PM Length

Banana... it can be both. Americans are warlike in some respects and not warlike in others. I think that there is a duel between the isolationist past and the idea that America has to be a force for good and positive change in the world. It leads to interesting decision making in terms of warmaking belief.

	02-01-2005 01:37									#60
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: There is nothing special about America that guarantees swift, total victories.

Who ever said anything about swift, total victories? Vietnam was arguably a long, tortuous defeat. Indeed, you could argue that the Cold War was one of the longest in history and ended in a victory. Both were decisive. Even with insurgencies, the US fought a decisive victory from the Phillipines over the span of some 30 years at the beginning of the 20th century.