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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
Stop insulting yourself, please.
US is a war-like country compared to most of western Europe, but it's sometimes better than blind pacifism of many in Europe.
Also, it comes out of that USA actually can be successful in war, while Europe.... uh... |
The US has been around for 228 years- the last 30, in which this said European pacifism" manifested itself, hardly explains America.
As was already said, Western European Pacifism is a modern change by Europeans. Lets just look at simple numbers:
NUmber of Americans soldiers killed in the last 100 years:
about 650,000 for WW1,WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Both Iraq's and miscellanous
Number of British soldiers killed, about 1.2 million
French: 1.4 million
German: at least 5 million
Russian: at least 7 million
Europeans are WAY ahead in the whole killing business.
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:16
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
I would of course dispute hjow you figure those numbers, but then, |
You don't even know how I have them, and you dispute the method by which I got them!?! 
John Stockwell, former CIA head of station for Angola, came up with the figures in the late 80s. When you add up all the people we've killed directly through our own military or by those to whom we outsourced the job, that figure came to 10,000,000 human beings. That doesn't include the invasion of Panama or anything afterwards.
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Last sixty? Well, make it seventy and the Germans, Russians and Chinese beat us in that regard. The Japanese as well. |
The point, as I've mentioned before, is that it was the experience of WWII that has made Europeans decide war is a very bad thing.
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techumseh
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of the frozen North.
Apr 1999
time: 22:16
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Not me!
But I'll take a stab at answering my own questions.
1) Overall size, composition and mission of the US armed forces:
The US military doctrine is offensive in nature, based on rapid deployment of offensive force (air, naval and ground) anywhere in the world. The US has the largest airforce and navy and the most modern army in the world. The US maintains the largest and most modern nuclear arsenal in the world. The Bush administration has recently revised US nuclear doctrine from deterence to an extension of conventional military operations.
2) Total % of GNP spent on military expenditures relative to other countries:
Canada - 1.1% of GDP, or $10B
UK - 2.4% of GDP, or $43B
France - 2.6% of GDP, or $45B
Germany - 1.5% of GDP, or $35B
Russia - 2.6% of GDP, or $14B
China - 3.5% of GDP or $60B
US - 3.3% of GDP or $370B
Essentially, the US spends more on it's military than all the rest of the world combined. It spends a greater percent of it's GDP on the military than any other country, except China or Israel (not shown).
3) Number of times US armed forces have been deployed outside it's own boundaries in conflict situations:
The US armed forces have been involved in more interventions in foreign countries since the Second World War than the combined attacks of Germany, Japan and Italy on other countries from 1930 to 1945. This doesn't include CIA operations, coups or other clandestine operations, such as the attempted (or successful) assasinations of foriegn leaders. Since the end of the Second World War, the US has been involved in more wars and military attacks than all the rest of the world combined.
Here are the facts. You be the judge.
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Sandman
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Sinister Penguin
Aug 2001
time: 05:16
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quote:
Who ever said anything about swift, total victories? Vietnam was arguably a long, tortuous defeat. Indeed, you could argue that the Cold War was one of the longest in history and ended in a victory. Both were decisive. Even with insurgencies, the US fought a decisive victory from the Phillipines over the span of some 30 years at the beginning of the 20th century. |
Claiming that messy imperialist adventures were decisive wars underlines my point even more. Tell me, was Korea a decisive stalemate?
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We did fight a war with the Brits in the 19th Century. The War of 1812 is often called the 2nd American Revolution, because it took that war for Britain to treat us seriously. |
quote:
Aside from the considerable turmoil of reconstruction and the polarizing fight over segregation and civil rights, you might want to look in a history book under the year 1812. It's just fascinating. |
Whoops. Should have said late 19th Century.
1812 was a small war that ended in a status quo peace. I can't really see how it was a war that made Britain take America seriously, especially compared to the far bloodier American Revolution.
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2. The Civil War- come on, do we not remember the endless threads? if that war was so damned decisive, whats with all the Confederate flags??? |
Tell me, what's the ratio of American flags to Confederate flags in the South? 10 to 1? 20 to 1? 50 to 1?
quote:
3. WW2- yes, this is THE war Americans like tot hink about- a nice, clearcut, obvious good vs Evil war, no gray. US as shinningh knight, plus the end and our actions afterwards make us feel nice and warm. BUt a few realities- the US went in 2 years late, ONLY after direct attack- while the US was most concerned about Germany, we were most acitve in the Pacific trying to pressure Japan to stop threatening our interests in China. |
These realities aren't apparent to most Americans.
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Jon Miller
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I think we have been in our past
I don't think we are particularly now, although the corporations do try (And succeed at times) to subvert us for their own desires
JM
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Pax
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
The US has been around for 228 years- the last 30, in which this said European pacifism" manifested itself, hardly explains America.
As was already said, Western European Pacifism is a modern change by Europeans. Lets just look at simple numbers:
NUmber of Americans soldiers killed in the last 100 years:
about 650,000 for WW1,WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Both Iraq's and miscellanous
Number of British soldiers killed, about 1.2 million
French: 1.4 million
German: at least 5 million
Russian: at least 7 million
Europeans are WAY ahead in the whole killing business. |
Your numbers don't prove the point. You have to know how many deaths/casualties inflicted not received.
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Chemical Ollie
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Bored of this board
Jan 2002
time: 06:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuciwalker
quote:
In a related idea, I have witnessed here a strong difference between Europeans and Americans wrt colateral damage. It's only a bit of a charicature to say that the Europeans consider every civilian casualty as being as terrible (no matter whether the Civilian was caught in an explosion killing a military target, or in a terrorist explosion targetting civilians), while Americans are prone to excuse the killing of innocents if it was motivated by the termination of an actual enemy, while they consider the deliberate targetting of civilians to be the epitome of evil.
I have noticed the same pattern with Israelis, btw. |
That's because good and evil exist in the motive of the actor, not the action itself. |
Good or evil is decided by the perception of the victims, not by the motive of actor, because the perception of the victims will decide their response.
The people who smashed the jets into the Twin Towers thought they did something good and would go to paradise, but the perception of the victims was that it was something evil.
On D-day, the allies killed more French civilians than they killed Germans. But France saw this as a necessary sacrifice and did not start any insurgency. Many people in Iraq saw the Americans as evil invaders and reacted completely different.
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:16
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quote:
Originally posted by techumseh
Essentially, the US spends more on it's military than all the rest of the world combined. It spends a greater percent of it's GDP on the military than any other country, except China or Israel (not shown). |
Not true, in the sense that plenty of other states, like North Korea, Syria, and so forth spend larger GDP procentages in their militaries. The fact that the US spends more than anyone is a factor of other rich states spending so little.
quote:
The US armed forces have been involved in more interventions in foreign countries since the Second World War than the combined attacks of Germany, Japan and Italy on other countries from 1930 to 1945. This doesn't include CIA operations, coups or other clandestine operations, such as the attempted (or successful) assasinations of foriegn leaders. Since the end of the Second World War, the US has been involved in more wars and military attacks than all the rest of the world combined. |
This is also certainly NOT true. Yes, the US has been involved in several large and small interventions worldwide, but more than the rest of the world?
France was in Indochina in the 40's and 50's, IN Algeria in the 50's and 690, with the UK and Israel invaded Egypt in '56, and has been involved in multiple military actions and coup in its old empire.
The Brits had a very active time in their empire as it fell apart.
The Russians moved in HUngary in 56, Czechoslovakia in 68, Afghanistan in '79, and participated ina number of other proxy actions.
And, since between 1936 and 1945 Germany invaded or absorbed:
Austria, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Norway, The Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, France, Yugoslavia, Greece, The Soviet Union, Italy, Hungary the claim is far too farfetched.
Look you are right the US has intervened a lot, but making hyperbolic claims undermines your point greatly.
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General Ludd
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Minion of the Dominion
Aug 2001
time: 05:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuciwalker
quote:
The people who smashed the jets into the Twin Towers thought they did something good and would go to paradise, but the perception of the victims was that it was something evil. |
Their intention was to kill lots of people. We call that evil. They call that good. The point is that one judges someone based on their intentions, not their actions. A blind person who, hoping to hit the button for room service, somehow accidentally hits the Big Red Button and kills everyone, is not evil, clearly. |
Do they really consider that good? If they where people close to them, if they where faithful muslims, would they think it is good to kill them? Was their intention to kill lots of people, or to 'punish heretics' and bring redemption (at the point of a sword)?
Intent is just as "trivial" as the perception of actions as from the victims, perhaps even more so because intent doesn't exist outside of a person's mind, and can't really be known by anyone else (and indeed, doesn't even always exist), whereas the actions are what effect other people, their surroundings, and the universe in general.
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A blind person who, hoping to hit the button for room service, somehow accidentally hits the Big Red Button and kills everyone, is not evil, clearly. |
Now, what if the blindman knew before hand that there was a "Big Red Button" right beside the one for room service, and while feeling very confident that he knew which one was for room service, he tried to press it... but hit the red button instead?
That is the situation the military is in with regards to bombing and collateral damage.
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techumseh
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of the frozen North.
Apr 1999
time: 22:16
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
Not true, in the sense that plenty of other states, like North Korea, Syria, and so forth spend larger GDP procentages in their militaries. The fact that the US spends more than anyone is a factor of other rich states spending so little.
quote:
The US armed forces have been involved in more interventions in foreign countries since the Second World War than the combined attacks of Germany, Japan and Italy on other countries from 1930 to 1945. This doesn't include CIA operations, coups or other clandestine operations, such as the attempted (or successful) assasinations of foriegn leaders. Since the end of the Second World War, the US has been involved in more wars and military attacks than all the rest of the world combined. |
This is also certainly NOT true. Yes, the US has been involved in several large and small interventions worldwide, but more than the rest of the world?
France was in Indochina in the 40's and 50's, IN Algeria in the 50's and 690, with the UK and Israel invaded Egypt in '56, and has been involved in multiple military actions and coup in its old empire.
The Brits had a very active time in their empire as it fell apart.
The Russians moved in HUngary in 56, Czechoslovakia in 68, Afghanistan in '79, and participated ina number of other proxy actions.
And, since between 1936 and 1945 Germany invaded or absorbed:
Austria, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Norway, The Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, France, Yugoslavia, Greece, The Soviet Union, Italy, Hungary the claim is far too farfetched.
Look you are right the US has intervened a lot, but making hyperbolic claims undermines your point greatly. |
Well, let's add it up:
Foreign interventions since 1945, by country:
Britain: Korea, Malaya, Egypt (Suez), Argentina (Falklands), Iraq X2, Serbia
France: Korea, Indochina, Algeria, Egypt (Suez), Congo (others in Africa?), Iraq, Serbia
China: Korea, Tibet(?), Vietnam
USSR/Russia: Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Afganistan
Total 19
United States: Korea, Guatemala, Haiti (X2), Dominican Republic, Cuba, Grenada, Panama, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Iraq (X2), Somalia, Lebanon, Liberia, Afghanistan, Serbia, Sudan, Libya, Iran
Total 21
Note - this doesn't include those countries where the US has engineered coups such as Indonesia, Chile, Brazil, Greece and so on. This would more than double their list.
This list is from memory and isn't exhaustive. If anyone has others to add for any country, please feel free.
Edit: http://www.greens.org/s-r/27/27-01a.html
Last edited by techumseh on 03-01-2005 at 01:03
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02-01-2005 10:13
ACK! 
)
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