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Krill
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On a cold wet rock, in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean.
Dec 2003
time: 05:34
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Agricultural, Expansionist, and Commercial (for the reasons pointed out in the other thread)
/Edit, Put the traits in order.
Last edited by Krill on 03-01-2005 at 15:40
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by Krill
Expansionist, Agricultural, and Commercial (for the reasons pointed out in the other thread) |
I imagine that by putting Expansionist first, you have been getting your more-than-fair share of free Settlers. Either that or you are playing a lot of Huge and/or Pangea maps. While I am definitely a proponent of Expansionist, on average it is IMO not even remotely as powerful as, say, Agr. (I like Sea. better too, but I admit that's more debatable).
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Krill
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On a cold wet rock, in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean.
Dec 2003
time: 05:34
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God, no, definatley in that order. Agr FIRST, THEN Exp, and thirdly Com.
Actually, I do think that Sea is a powerful trait, but it isn't (/Edit: IMHO) as powerful as Exp since you don't:
- Start with a curragh,
- You can't pop huts and not get barbs, and settlers are a bit rarer
 A turn two free settler, which can be used to become a worker/settler pump? Game breaking, they only two words that can be used to describe it... Agr is not as powerful as Exp in this case
- Every one can build curraghs as soon as they hae a coastal city, and that could be as early as a second city by turn 17, (OK, they would need alpha as wel). No one can build a two move land unit intil they have horses hooked up. Sometimes you won't ever get horses.
- Exp civs can now the layout of the entire continent (minus about 20 tules of FoW) by turn forty, and should have met all the other AI. Sea civs can only know the shape of the continent, and won't have met all the other civs. This means that you would be fueling the civs that you would have met, and the other, inland AI would be an untapped market.
The advatages of Sea over Exp are:
- You start with Alpha instead of pottery (more useful when trading to the AI and it is easier to complete philo first, since it costs less to research pottery than alpha),
- That extra movement point will never be lost. OK, it might become negligable when you have destroyers and battleships, but it is always there.
- Cheap habours are helpful, since it costs less to rush them in the crappy production cities that coastal cities are...
(I'm starting to run out of reasons here)
Last edited by Krill on 03-01-2005 at 16:32
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punkbass2000
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Waterloo, ON, Canada
Feb 2002
time: 00:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Krill
God, no, definatley in that order. Agr FIRST, THEN Exp, and thirdly Com.
Actually, I do think that Sea is a powerful trait, but it isn't (/Edit: IMHO) as powerful as Exp since you don't:
- Start with a curragh,
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Fair enough, though you've neglected to mention that you do start with an extra gpt that last for the whole game.
quote:
You can't pop huts and not get barbs, and settlers are a bit rarer A turn two free settler, which can be used to become a worker/settler pump? Game breaking, they only two words that can be used to describe it... Agr is not as powerful as Exp in this case |
I'm not really into strategies that are based around luck. This is simply too narrow a scenario to have a significant bearing. Besides, it's still a possibility with any other civs, though not as likely. IF you're going to take unlikely circumstances as evidence for a traits superiority you need to give the same benefit to its opponents.
quote:
Every one can build curraghs as soon as they hae a coastal city, and that could be as early as a second city by turn 17, (OK, they would need alpha as wel). No one can build a two move land unit intil they have horses hooked up. Sometimes you won't ever get horses. |
No, they need Alphabet for Curraghs.
quote:
Exp civs can now the layout of the entire continent (minus about 20 tules of FoW) by turn forty, and should have met all the other AI. Sea civs can only know the shape of the continent, and won't have met all the other civs. This means that you would be fueling the civs that you would have met, and the other, inland AI would be an untapped market. |
This clause indicates to me that Dom is quite right. It sounds as though you primarily play Pangaea on maps that are at least Standard. This heavily weights things in Expansionist's favour.
quote:
The advatages of Sea over Exp are:
- You start with Alpha instead of pottery (more useful when trading to the AI and it is easier to complete philo first, since it costs less to research pottery than alpha),
- That extra movement point will never be lost. OK, it might become negligable when you have destroyers and battleships, but it is always there.
- Cheap habours are helpful, since it costs less to rush them in the crappy production cities that coastal cities are...
(I'm starting to run out of reasons here) |
It may also be that you're completely unaware of the mian benefit of Seafaring: all coastal cities produce one extra commerce per turn. This is huge in the early game. Unless you're playing a Huge Pangaea (in which case, Exp. clearly wins anyway), you should easily be able to get at least four good, early coastal cities. The extra gpt is tremendous. The extra movement is just a bonus, while the cheap harbours steal what I find to be Militaristic's only important advantage... You are aware that a city needs only two water squares in its radius in order to be coastal. Also, in the early game, a city rarely needs more than few tiles to work. In addition, your comment on coastal cities indicates to me that greatly undervalue commerce.
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Modo44
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in western Poland
Jul 2004
time: 06:34
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Voted for Agricultural, Commercial, Scientific.
Only Agricultural is obvious, as the most powerful trait in Civ3. Even in dry terrain, cheap Aqueducts, food bonus once out of Despotism, and powerful Desert Irrigation, are hard to beat. And if you get fresh water, you won't know what to do with all the food.
Commercial and Scientific seem the best builder-support to me. Actually, after reading this and the previous thread, they are tied for 4th place with Seafaring. Still, very far behind Agricultural.
BUT, other traits are fun as well, depending on the circumstances. Expansionistic wins most huge maps, by a possible early tech lead. Industrious is very nice in bumpy terrain, or near Jungles/Marshes. Militaristic is obviously good for warmongers, and (less obvious?) so is Religious.
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Dominae
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I'm not going to repeat all the stuff pb2k just said. 
quote:
Originally posted by Krill
Exp civs can now the layout of the entire continent (minus about 20 tules of FoW) by turn forty, and should have met all the other AI. Sea civs can only know the shape of the continent, and won't have met all the other civs. This means that you would be fueling the civs that you would have met, and the other, inland AI would be an untapped market.[/list=1]
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A neat quirk about Pangea maps is that you can contact all the AI civs with just one Curragh; Seafaring just means you can do this 50% faster. It has been very rare for me to play a Pangea map where there were landlocked civs that I simply could not contact with my Curragh. Similarly, a Scout will eventually meet everyone, but it can sometimes take longer than a lone Curragh due to dead ends, unfavorable terrain, etc.
And then there's the ridiculous advantage gained by Seafaring civs in terms of suicide rushes to other continents on non-Pangea maps. Yes, an Expansionist civ can also build Curraghs eventually, but without that extra movement and reduced sinking chance, it may waste a lot of Shields on suicides. The relative advantage of getting all contacts early on on a Pangea map is mitigated by the fact that the AIs will most probably do so as well eventually; when there are multiple continents involved, you can exploit your suicide rushes as long as Astronomy or Navigation/Magnetism.
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Mr Justice
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i went for Agr, Com and Sea.
im not a big fan of exp, infact i maily play with huts off.
i dont really rate rel either cause 1 gov change is all i do, cheap temples are nice.
used be big fan of ind, but then it got diminished and ive not looked back since.
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GodKing
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Detroit
Feb 2002
time: 00:34
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Only voted for one, as I didn’t bother reading first….. Bad Boy.
1) Agg, for obvious reasons
2) Industrious. I like being able to build things fast, and, I don’t need to keep nearly as many workers around, so the unit support goes to military instead.
3) This one is hard. Commercial, Seafaring or Religious.
Commercial & Seafaring provide lots of extra gold, which translates into power. Religious is more important the higher level you are playing, particularly emperor and above. Keeping your people happy and working cheaply is nice, and the fast changes of government are not to be sneered at either. On lower difficulty levels, where happiness is not so much of a concern, I would replace Religious with Scientific, to get cheap libraries for cultural borders and keeping ahead in science.
Militaristic is nice, but it just doesn’t float my boat.
Expansionistic is useful only in the very early game, and then on specific land types as well. As I usually play with random maps, the luck factor is just too great a risk for me. Of course, as I usually play with a random civ as well…
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joncnunn
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Maryland Heights, MO
Sep 2002
time: 23:34
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In my current game as the Hitties [exp + com], I got 2 free settlers!, with them in very strategic areas. Yes, it secured having a 3rd unique luxary, horses, and planting of more than my share of the map. Americans actually stole a city site from me via a Galley 2 turns before my settler reached it. (Low priority spot), but I had two warriors next to it and Lincoln caved when I demanded he turn over that city to me. (I had a large military realtive to Lincoln also thanks to the large number of cities founded)
Never built a Carrugh, only coastal city for a long time was too busy as a settler pump [Flood Plains + Wheat! next to it; no granery needed to pump], and several of the other coastal cities had too low shield production to be good for building a 2 MP naval unit on what was obviously Pangena by the time I had Alphabet. Evenually got around to building a Galley once new settlers no longer needed.
Uh, no I didn't reach all players by turn 40, took until about turn 50 to get the last one on the landmass. (Extreme far side of the landmass.) One civ actually started outside the landmass, but managed to form a one city colony on the main land around turn 70.
Discovery of Printing Press revealed that most civs hadn't made contact with that interloper [not suprizing], but also the SE extreme most civs on Pangena did not make contact with the Americans next to me. (I fire sold all these contacts to get something out of it.)
quote:
Originally posted by Krill
God, no, definatley in that order. Agr FIRST, THEN Exp, and thirdly Com.
Actually, I do think that Sea is a powerful trait, but it isn't (/Edit: IMHO) as powerful as Exp since you don't:
- Start with a curragh,
- You can't pop huts and not get barbs, and settlers are a bit rarer A turn two free settler, which can be used to become a worker/settler pump? Game breaking, they only two words that can be used to describe it... Agr is not as powerful as Exp in this case
- Every one can build curraghs as soon as they hae a coastal city, and that could be as early as a second city by turn 17, (OK, they would need alpha as wel). No one can build a two move land unit intil they have horses hooked up. Sometimes you won't ever get horses.
- Exp civs can now the layout of the entire continent (minus about 20 tules of FoW) by turn forty, and should have met all the other AI. Sea civs can only know the shape of the continent, and won't have met all the other civs. This means that you would be fueling the civs that you would have met, and the other, inland AI would be an untapped market.
The advatages of Sea over Exp are:
- You start with Alpha instead of pottery (more useful when trading to the AI and it is easier to complete philo first, since it costs less to research pottery than alpha),
- That extra movement point will never be lost. OK, it might become negligable when you have destroyers and battleships, but it is always there.
- Cheap habours are helpful, since it costs less to rush them in the crappy production cities that coastal cities are...
(I'm starting to run out of reasons here) |
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Yosho
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My favorate is religious, mostly because that's the only way I've really been able to get democracy and such to pay for itself; on the harder settings, I'm almost never able to create a situation where it's worthwhile to go democracy, while with a religious government it's practical to switch back and forth, giving a huge long-term bonus to commerce. It's a minor point, but I'll also mention that cheaper early temples are a nice bonus.
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Modo44
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in western Poland
Jul 2004
time: 06:34
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quote:
Originally posted by joncnunn
I'm actually on a map on my pbem game where being agrictural isn't game breaking, nor is even getting the SGL on the first tech discovered.
It's, really, really awful : "Horrid Start for Incas". It's a good size land mass to have for oneself, only it's Greenland! (2/3rds is Tundra!) The only fresh water is one fresh water lake in the tundra, no irrigation chain possible with any city planting scheme near there.
Bascially the Pryamids is enough to keep me in the game. Partly by spoiling it for everyone else, so it can't be built on a more useful landmass.
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Yes, I know that thread. A heavy ICS on that tundra would bring you many, many unit-producing cities. 3 Forest tiles worked instead of 2 makes a huge difference, don't you think? I would think Feudalism. Anyway, once you are out of Despotism, you get that bonus everywhere. Pyramids or not, it's powerful.
And by "game breaking" one could mean a bonus allowing you to stay in the game, when the start is very bad. The Agricultural trait could be just that in the game you described. IMO it's the only trait that makes Tundra without bonus food at least halfway useful.
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joncnunn
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Maryland Heights, MO
Sep 2002
time: 23:34
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I tend to reserve "game breaking" as a bonus that turns a normal start into a heavilly favorite to win situation.
Well, I don't need to make a decision between Feudalism and Republic yet; (Monarchy is certinatly out of the question.) It's now 3450 BC and I'm still researching the Alphabet in order to build a Curagh to check to see if there is a nearby landmass. There's a handful of tiles unexplored on the starting landmass, rapidlly decreasing; mostly initally bypassed areas.
Yes, there's enough forest in most areas even with ICS for there to be 3 forest tiles adviable for each city before Enginnering.
Have I mentioned I've yet to find a goody hut? Guess the Mayas are screwed over for their UU. (No goody huts => No barbs)
quote:
Originally posted by Modo44
Yes, I know that thread. A heavy ICS on that tundra would bring you many, many unit-producing cities. 3 Forest tiles worked instead of 2 makes a huge difference, don't you think? I would think Feudalism. Anyway, once you are out of Despotism, you get that bonus everywhere. Pyramids or not, it's powerful.
And by "game breaking" one could mean a bonus allowing you to stay in the game, when the start is very bad. The Agricultural trait could be just that in the game you described. IMO it's the only trait that makes Tundra without bonus food at least halfway useful. |
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02-01-2005 11:46
Why do I always get "You will get control back in 8 turns???" 
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