06-01-2005 01:53									#31
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As the banana option was saddled with anarchy, I couldn't vote. The answer is as always - it depends.

It's a sign of a good game where the answer is 'none of the above', and there are many GovX vs Gov Y debates. A number of posters have touched on the key decider in the Republic or Not debate ...

Republic sucks when you hit the Middle Ages with as many units as you could build in the previous era, and it rocks when you're going builder in the early game - either to stay builder or explode later on.

	06-01-2005 04:12									#32
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quote: Originally posted by gunkulator My personal opinion is that we all got spoiled with Civ2's infinite number of non corrupt cities. All you had to do was get to one of the zero corruption govs, take a couple AI cities so that you had the most, and then sit back and out-produce, out-research and out-tax everyone else. Any slight lead led to an unstoppable snowball effect.

No question C3C's corruption model is better that Civ2.

Well, not to digress the thread too much here, as it's been discussed ad nauseum, I will say that, in the real world, a far-flung city in a Democratic govt doesn't necessarily have high corruption. Honolulu isn't woefully corrupt whilst sitting in a Democracy. Or is it? Sen. Inouye, etc.

But at any rate, in Civ3, a city that far from its capital would have mega corruption. I don't want to debate it here, but the question is, is that a correct corruption model?

	06-01-2005 06:22									#33
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I used to always go for demo. now, I usually skip over researching the tech completely, and go for getting into the industrial age asap. Often, I will stay in republic and go into a bunch of small wars. If it looks like a large long war, I will switch to Commie.

	06-01-2005 10:04									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Mace Ah, I see yer point there. 2nd core is of no signifigance since no other non-communal govt can do that either now. Well, I think ALL Civ3 govts (except Communism) are "high" corruption govts...but that's just me. (I think corruption is modelled incorrectly in Civ3.) I agree with you more and more. You must understand that I have not played many Republic games in C3C, and my observations are in part based on what I've seen in the editor, and Civ2 knowledge. Back with Civ1 and Civ2 I had a lot more time to experiment with these things. Now, I don't. In my latest game I have gone Despotism ---> Republic on an Arch80 map playing Carthage. I have done two things that I did not think Republic was capable of: I've been able to maintain a large army as the middle ages went on. I've been able to control WW. ***I have, when in the Editor, noticed that Republic has a different corruption rating than Demo (one level worse, if I remember correctly). And this led me to conclude that Repub is a high- (or at least high-er) corruption govt. Technically, it appears that Rep does have higher corruption as you alluded. But the end-result, which is tech and gold, is not much different.

That's all I'm saying.

On the corruption model itself, I think that's more of a gameplay than realism issue. To model the real world, they could tie corruption to movement between city A and the capital instead of distance, but once railroads are laid and airports are built, you're right back to the Civ2 scenario of infinite corruption-free, or low corruption, cities.

	06-01-2005 10:06									#35
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Not to mention that Dem is an optional tech you do not need to research. It comes to late to wait for (in depotism), so you will have to suffer an extra government switch. All of that for a small gain, if any (depends on your military).

You're right, I forgot about the added costs of getting into Democracy. I should have stipulated that WW was the only advantage of being in Rep over being in Dem.

	06-01-2005 20:45									#36
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You can have a second core with non-communial govts, IF you place the FP properly. The second core will be smaller than the first.

For that matter, communial govts can really only ever have 3 core cities. (Palace, FP, and SPHQ.)

Democracy does involve 2 Optional Techs, but the Printing Press is extremely valuable to a human if they are the first to discover it for trading contacts. Somewhat less so on Pangena, but it's still not uncommon on Pangena for the civs on the extereme edges of it to not have contact with eachother when Printing Press comes around.

There's also an optional tech Free Artistry that Democracy is on the way to, that if you research this early enough to build Shakesphere's soon enough will allow one of your cities [usaually the captial] to reach size 16+ before the Industrial Age begins. This will allow that city to quickly build Industrial Age wonders [after a Factory].

	06-01-2005 23:30									#37
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn You can have a second core with non-communial govts, IF you place the FP properly. The second core will be smaller than the first. For that matter, communial govts can really only ever have 3 core cities. (Palace, FP, and SPHQ.)

Isn't a "core" an entire region of your empire? That's how I have always defined it.

	07-01-2005 00:44									#38
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A core is more a matter of the number of cities that are close enough to have good production, without significant losses due to corruption.

So this could be impacted with the RCP design in C3 or PTW. IOW how you laided out the empire would be a determination of the size of the core in those games.

	07-01-2005 02:12									#39
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To have a 2nd FP core of max size it must have at least a full ring of cities around it. And must be neither too close nor too far from the Palace.

It's a given that the FP area will need Court Houses and would also benifit from Police Stations.

The other thing that determines size of both cores is which cities have Court Houses and later Police Stations.

In Vanilla, it was also determined by how many cities you could succeed in getting into WTLPD, but in Conquests, getting large sections of your empire under WLTPD to act as a free second Court House [for shields only] in the Middle Ages is much, much more difficult. (Unless moded to increase luxaries.)

I supose war-monglers have an easier time getting the luxaries, but on the other hand, they are less likely to build Court Houses.

	07-01-2005 02:32									#40
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I know that I may be commiting Civ-blasphomy because I STILL have yet to get Conquests (which keeps sounding better and better ) But I have to ask a few questions that i feel have to be addressed:

What happened to Fascism? And Monarchy? I mean, I play a normal game by beeling to Monarchy then making my way out to Democracy or Republic later. Communism if war is going to be a long deal. But the unspoken of (certainly not without justification ) has been Fascism. Is there any good reason why you/the AI would ever choose such a government? I mean, do you all find any AI using it, and does anyone use it at all? Or is it once again just between two standard governmental systems?

	07-01-2005 03:05									#41
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AI uses it over communism...to their detriment.

It's not that bad a government, really, if you can get by it's 2 major drawbacks of pop loss on changing to it, and the racial majority needed to begin earning culture points.

It's the second one that is more detrimental IMO, as a warmonger that late in the game often needs to rush a temple to get some quick culture going and help that flip formula.

	07-01-2005 04:02									#42
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn To have a 2nd FP core of max size it must have at least a full ring of cities around it. And must be neither too close nor too far from the Palace.

That's the thing though...I have always thought that the C3C FP only did 2 things:
1) increase the OCN, and
2) greatly reduce corruption in the city where it's built.

I did not think the C3C FP directly affected cities AROUND it--the Vanilla FP did that, but not the C3C FP. IOW, I didn't think the C3c FP gave a 2nd core. Outside the increased OCN benefits, where's the "ring of cities" benefit given by a 2nd core? I thought C3C did away with that. Please confirm this...

	07-01-2005 04:22									#43
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quote: Originally posted by theDragon I know that I may be commiting Civ-blasphomy because I STILL have yet to get Conquests...

Yes, get out of here before we cut your head off!

quote: What happened to Fascism? And Monarchy? I mean, I play a normal game by beeling to Monarchy then making my way out to Democracy or Republic later.

The problem with the Monarchy beeline is that the Republic beeline has something extra going for it: the free tech from Philosophy. You would have to be building a lot of troops (at the expense of your REX) for Monarchy to make more sense economically. Might as well just REX better, build up faster, and strike stronger but later.

quote: Is there any good reason why you/the AI would ever choose such a government? I mean, do you all find any AI using it, and does anyone use it at all? Or is it once again just between two standard governmental systems?

Fascism is a poor government choice for the human player; Republic/Democracy or Communism are better, if you are using them right (i.e. in AU505 it never made sense for me to switch to Fascism until the very end, because I used the AI's gpt to pay upkeep for my exploding army). The AI is hard-coded to switch out of representative governments when war carries on, but most of the time it is better off in Communism than Fascism.

If you are Religious, your choices after Republic are between Democracy and Communism. If not, you should stay in Republic or switch to Communism.

	07-01-2005 18:36									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Mace I didn't think the C3c FP gave a 2nd core. I thought C3C did away with that. Please confirm this...

well ... ... it depends

in theory fp still gives a second core, it's just that the second core ain't worth - blip

corruption by distance is still reset according to fp location. ie corruption due to distance is calculated based on the nearest corruption reducing wonder. There are three of these - palace, fp and sphq.

corruption due to city rank is not reset by proximity to fp. ie - city rank is calculated purely according to distance from the palace. this is the major difference with c3c.

corruption is capped anyway. so reducing distance corruption in a city with high rank has no real effect. the cities surrounding fp get no benefit unless they are in the unusual situation of having high distance but low rank.

otherwise, like you said, it basically just increases the ocn and cuts corruption in the actual fp city

how jon manages to get two cores out of that lot is a mystery hidden from we mortals

quote: Originally posted by joncnunn For that matter, communial govts can really only ever have 3 core cities. (Palace, FP, and SPHQ.)

Of course things are different under communism, but to discuss that i'd be getting dangerously close to on-topic

	08-01-2005 05:18									#45
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quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx ...and the racial majority needed to begin earning culture points. It's the second one that is more detrimental IMO, as a warmonger that late in the game often needs to rush a temple to get some quick culture going and help that flip formula.

Yes, this well and truly sucks. You're gonna be in Fascism to BE a warmonger... The lack of cultural expansion was a major PITA in AU 505.

My answer in that game was mediocre: In an effort to benefit from the many captured improvements, I was building cultural improvements via poprush (they still fend off CFing, I believe), and making up for the lack of cultural expansion by laying down late-game camps all over the place, at 2- and 3-tile CP from captured cities. Ugly.

The best approach that I can think of (post-playing 505, unfortunately), would be to poprush units while selling off improvements, get a captured city down to a very low pop and no buildings of note, and just abandon the dang thing, replacing it with your own de novo town. Laborious, at best.

	08-01-2005 05:19									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae The problem with the Monarchy beeline is that the Republic beeline has something extra going for it: the free tech from Philosophy. You would have to be building a lot of troops (at the expense of your REX) for Monarchy to make more sense economically. Might as well just REX better, build up faster, and strike stronger but later.

Ahhhh... you forget the Feudalism beeline.

	08-01-2005 06:00									#47
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Fascism is for when you currently have a small in size empire that's extremely well developed [mostly Metros high enough to still be a Metro upon switching] and want to conquer the world.
The very high free unit support for Metros in this govt will allow you to afford to build that large army of Tanks / Panzers and then send them forth.

Communism is for when your empire is already realtively large but the cities aren't as developed and you want to conquer the world. Equal unit support across city sizes and the communial shield production will allow lots of cities to build military units to conquer still more territory.

Conquests didn't add any peaceful govts, it just toned Republic up and in the process gave it too similar to Democracy in many players mind to be worth the switch. Conquests also increased max anarchy by 1 turn for everybody to 2 turns Religious 9 turns non-Religious and also made it partly dependenant upon # of cities in the empire, which also discourages changing of govts for non-religious for the humans. [AI doesn't care : correct AI behvivor on Emperor+ given AI max govt transistion time, but wrong on lower leveles]

quote: Originally posted by theDragon I know that I may be commiting Civ-blasphomy because I STILL have yet to get Conquests (which keeps sounding better and better ) But I have to ask a few questions that i feel have to be addressed: What happened to Fascism? And Monarchy? I mean, I play a normal game by beeling to Monarchy then making my way out to Democracy or Republic later. Communism if war is going to be a long deal. But the unspoken of (certainly not without justification ) has been Fascism. Is there any good reason why you/the AI would ever choose such a government? I mean, do you all find any AI using it, and does anyone use it at all? Or is it once again just between two standard governmental systems?

	08-01-2005 06:16									#48
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First, we can ignore SPHQ on distance corruption. Only commie's can build (or benifit from) it and they have no distance corruption.

I suspect you were trying to place the FP city too far from the palace, resulting in every city out there naturally being at max corruption with a Court House.

That city really should be in the 35 - 50% shields wasted under most govts with a Court House unless you really luck out on luxaries in the early game. Unless you get a MGL, the entire region should also have had Court Houses built prior to the FP compelting. Under Republic, that can be done via cash rushing, just like the CH and MP of the city building the FP probably were.

Attached is my latest turn, in the early 600s with my FP build in progress. It was initally placed with the intention of playing peaceful rest of game, athough a small annexation of America to get the Saltpeter would also be supported by this placement.

All cities owned by me were peacefully built during my REX with the exception of New Orleans which I demanded the Americans had over with 2 Warriors right outside its boundary the turn it was built, and Lincoln complied.

quote: Originally posted by lebensraum well ... ... it depends in theory fp still gives a second core, it's just that the second core ain't worth - blip corruption by distance is still reset according to fp location. ie corruption due to distance is calculated based on the nearest corruption reducing wonder. There are three of these - palace, fp and sphq. corruption due to city rank is not reset by proximity to fp. ie - city rank is calculated purely according to distance from the palace. this is the major difference with c3c. corruption is capped anyway. so reducing distance corruption in a city with high rank has no real effect. the cities surrounding fp get no benefit unless they are in the unusual situation of having high distance but low rank. otherwise, like you said, it basically just increases the ocn and cuts corruption in the actual fp city how jon manages to get two cores out of that lot is a mystery hidden from we mortals Of course things are different under communism, but to discuss that i'd be getting dangerously close to on-topic

	08-01-2005 06:25									#49
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I'm thinking a Fascist player attacking a player with stronger culture should just raize to the ground every city he takes.
(Well, maybe wait a turn after capturing and then hiting the abandon city button in some cases where it would speed the conquest of the next city.)

Later, there will be living space for his tribe to settle down in.

quote: Originally posted by Theseus Yes, this well and truly sucks. You're gonna be in Fascism to BE a warmonger... The lack of cultural expansion was a major PITA in AU 505. My answer in that game was mediocre: In an effort to benefit from the many captured improvements, I was building cultural improvements via poprush (they still fend off CFing, I believe), and making up for the lack of cultural expansion by laying down late-game camps all over the place, at 2- and 3-tile CP from captured cities. Ugly. The best approach that I can think of (post-playing 505, unfortunately), would be to poprush units while selling off improvements, get a captured city down to a very low pop and no buildings of note, and just abandon the dang thing, replacing it with your own de novo town. Laborious, at best.

	08-01-2005 06:38									#50
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn I'm thinking a Fascist player attacking a player with stronger culture should just raize to the ground every city he takes. (Well, maybe wait a turn after capturing and then hiting the abandon city button in some cases where it would speed the conquest of the next city.) Later, there will be living space for his tribe to settle down in.

Pop-rush a Granary, pop-rush whatever you need (Courthouse, culture, ...), at size 5 pop-rush a Settler (you'll probably want it anyway, given the bad AI city spacing). City gets to size 1, with Granary and lots of food (AI territory will usually have too much Irrigation) - quickly becoming 3, and accumulating culture. Works every time.

	09-01-2005 06:44									#51
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Seriously, in real-life, I don't see corruption being based off distance from the capital. Look at America. You don't see Los Angeles half corrupted because it's on the other side of the country. Then look at Mexico. The capital is right in the middle, and I think you get the picture there...

	09-01-2005 08:12									#52
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What difference does ti make how they choose to model it? They picked a way and now we are force to use it. Matters not to me how they do it, just so long as they tell me how.

	09-01-2005 15:11									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Commy Seriously, in real-life, I don't see corruption being based off distance from the capital. Look at America.

America counts as a Democracy for Civ3 purposes. Extremely low corruption. And, it counts as a well developed country, having Courthouses and Police Stations everywhere.

To couter that, take a look at Russia. In Civ3, they are an underdeveloped, huge, Republic. And corruption is killing them.

	09-01-2005 22:39									#54
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn First, we can ignore SPHQ on distance corruption. Only commie's can build (or benifit from) it and they have no distance corruption.

oops ...

quote: I suspect you were trying to place the FP city too far from the palace

(/ ot & already common knowledge)
this is something i've yet to get a proper handle on - needs more practise.
but, your fp core still sounds more like an enhancement of the first core. ie. something of a crescent-shaped extension to the original core. i guess when i was talking about a 'second core' i meant an independent section of territory, with its own radius of productive cities.
i'm inclined to think 'core' is not the right term for (c3c) fp-enhanced territory.

seems like it's more about finding the right conjunction between palace/ fp location and it is proximity to the palace which is the critical factor in a city's productivity.

for eg. let's say (squidgy figures here ok!) you have ocn = 10. a city right next to the fp with rank 50 is not going to benefit. so to me, it's not part of the core. but a city with rank 15, which might be on the far side of the empire will benefit significantly. so in terms of productivity, it's definitely in the F-PET

sorry people i'll just go away now, and wait till mark creates the civ3-semantics forum

(/ot ... honest)

quote: Attached is my latest turn, in the early 600s with my FP build in progress. .

thanks, j ... it'll take me a few days to get a look at it,
our people are technologically backward

but thanks for letting me look over your shoulder

	10-01-2005 00:50									#55
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In that game, ran out of space so yes, the FP core started at the P core.

Yes, rank order 50s is the wrong place for the FP.

And note that I did consider the city south of there [that settler granted by a goody hut], I narrowly rejected it on grounds that I'd be too tempted to declare war on America just to get New York [America got that one with a free settler from goody hut as well] with that location.

When the FP completed, I hadn't built the CH in the city north of it, so could see the double benifit offered by FP clearly in that case.

Edit : You guys will have to look up with the raw city number of the FP site I chose as well as the one I narrowly rejected if you wish to know them. I'm highly intutive with both the corruption patterns and city placement in Civ III. Note also that it's a large map. (Started with 8 civs though; I like a little extra space between civs.) As you can see I didn't quite explore throughly enough in a few spots before founding the city and consequentely missed some whales on the east coast.

quote: Originally posted by lebensraum (/ ot & already common knowledge) this is something i've yet to get a proper handle on - needs more practise. but, your fp core still sounds more like an enhancement of the first core. ie. something of a crescent-shaped extension to the original core. i guess when i was talking about a 'second core' i meant an independent section of territory, with its own radius of productive cities. i'm inclined to think 'core' is not the right term for (c3c) fp-enhanced territory. seems like it's more about finding the right conjunction between palace/ fp location and it is proximity to the palace which is the critical factor in a city's productivity. for eg. let's say (squidgy figures here ok!) you have ocn = 10. a city right next to the fp with rank 50 is not going to benefit. so to me, it's not part of the core. but a city with rank 15, which might be on the far side of the empire will benefit significantly. so in terms of productivity, it's definitely in the F-PET sorry people i'll just go away now, and wait till mark creates the civ3-semantics forum (/ot ... honest) thanks, j ... it'll take me a few days to get a look at it, our people are technologically backward but thanks for letting me look over your shoulder

	10-01-2005 23:25									#56
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/off topic (sorry)

quote: Originally posted by lebensraum but, your fp core still sounds more like an enhancement of the first core. ie. something of a crescent-shaped extension to the original core. i guess when i was talking about a 'second core' i meant an independent section of territory, with its own radius of productive cities. i'm inclined to think 'core' is not the right term for (c3c) fp-enhanced territory.

That's exactly what I was getting at earlier. I just didn't explain it nearly so well...

quote: seems like it's more about finding the right conjunction between palace/ fp location and it is proximity to the palace which is the critical factor in a city's productivity. for eg. let's say (squidgy figures here ok!) you have ocn = 10. a city right next to the fp with rank 50 is not going to benefit. so to me, it's not part of the core. but a city with rank 15, which might be on the far side of the empire will benefit significantly. so in terms of productivity, it's definitely in the F-PET

Seems like it. So this means, just make sure that the cities around the FP are low rank. In other words, when you place your FP, put it around cities of low rank. Is this a good way of thinking about it?

I wanted to make that one thing clear for myself...
/end offtopic

	19-01-2005 04:53									#57
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hey jon, sorry for the outrageous delay

hardware problems

as of last week, i finally posses my own rocket-fuelled 300 mhz p2 (with a whopping 3gig hard drive!)
which is great
did what any sensibe person would do and deleted everything except civ and de-fragged
then two days ago, the cd stops recognising disks
pull out that one, pop in a friend's cd drive and it says my hard drive's failed.
remove all cd-drives and the machine wakes up and makes the coffee

i'm heading back to my place to try out my american screwdriver ...
if that don't fix it what will?

anyway .. sorry but this is taking forever
i'll get back to you when i've got a solution
cheers

	19-01-2005 05:17									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Mace So this means, just make sure that the cities around the FP are low rank. In other words, when you place your FP, put it around cities of low rank. Is this a good way of thinking about it?

again.. sorry for the delay mace

no. it's probably still a confusing and unhelpful way to think about it

the cruel gods of civ constrain me once again to repeat my mantra ..
dominae was right

interms of placement, you might as well ignore the cities surrounding the fp. this is sort of contrary to what jon and i have been going on about.
i guess i'm looking for places where special contingencies or tactics might allow you squeeze a few extra drops out of the corruption formulae.

as i general rule, i'm more inclined to say, put your fp in any city that has good production/ potential

the thing is, some cities will benefit from building the fp, but only rarely will a city benefit from actually being close to the fp. so unless you have a personal strategy to do otherwise, the only thing you really need to think about is to make sure the actual fp city is decent

now as to timing the fp build on the other hand ...

	19-01-2005 09:03									#59
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quote: Originally posted by lebensraum the cruel gods of civ constrain me once again to repeat my mantra .. dominae was right

* Dominae blushes

(I'm pretty sure it was alexman who made me see the light regarding building the FP - ASAP, in a high-Shield city.)

	19-01-2005 19:08									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 Pop-rush a Granary, pop-rush whatever you need (Courthouse, culture, ...), at size 5 pop-rush a Settler (you'll probably want it anyway, given the bad AI city spacing). City gets to size 1, with Granary and lots of food (AI territory will usually have too much Irrigation) - quickly becoming 3, and accumulating culture. Works every time.

I also tend to mix in a few drafts for MP purposes as well, but yeah, that's about what it boils down to. Special bonus to having pyramids.