05-01-2005 02:40									#61
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quote: why do you oppose someone simply making a list of certain types of offenders?

It's not "someone" it's the government. This isn't like the list of cops who kill gang members people put out. This encourages vigilantees, and makes it easy for someone to get "revenge" or "justice". IMO, it is a nice idea, but it can potentially endanger someone whose debt to society has already been filled.

	05-01-2005 02:40									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Sava IIRC, one's juvenile records are already sealed. I just support the status quo. People do dumb things when they are kids. It shouldn't be held against them. But obviously the most heinous crimes should be treated differently.

You mean like a 25 year old going out with a 17 year old? That is covered under Megan's Law as well, you know.

But, in the end, I believe that if your serve your time, you shouldn't be further punished.

	05-01-2005 02:41									#63
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Of course. Why not?

Cause they served their time.

	05-01-2005 02:42									#64
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quote: Originally posted by GePap What are you talking about? Did your friend have to sign a registry by law so that everyone in the neighborhood would know what he did and know if he moved, and if he had moved, would everyone living there been informed of his infracture? If not, then he had far more privacy than a sex-offender, pedophile or not, gets.

Everyone who mattered to him knew, and his street address was not a concern (though they could certainly have found when he bought his house, since that too is public record - they could even find how much he paid for it)

And btw, the neighbors arent informed unless they choose to search the database.

	05-01-2005 02:43									#65
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This is just too damn bizarre position to take. You have no right to privacy for crimes committed as an adult. None! Even if you think you have that right, none will be accorded to you.

Y'all have lived in cities for far too long!

	05-01-2005 02:45									#66
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You shouldn't be put into a position where the government is basically encouraging vigilanteeism. You should have a right to privacy against that!

	05-01-2005 02:45									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Cause they served their time.

That is irrelevant to this discussion. These criminals aren't being punished again. They are free. Obviously, public record of their crime is part of the deal. It isn't an additional punishment.

	05-01-2005 02:45									#68
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No one knows the answer to my question?

	05-01-2005 02:45									#69
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quote: These criminals aren't being punished again. They are free. Obviously, public record of their crime is part of the deal. It isn't an additional punishment.

That's silly. Of course they are being punished again.

You don't think that sex offenders get beaten up or constantly humilated by their neighbors when they find out the information?

	05-01-2005 02:47									#70
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark So its ok to put it in the paper, and ok for the paper to have a searchable database. But if the STATE has a searchable database, thats a violation? Theyre violating privacy by making it easy to find something thats already a matter of public record (unlike, say, medical records)?

Papers should have the right to anounce convictions, yes, freedom of press. The state also has all the criminal records of an invidiual, so on this point, the state and the individual citizen are equal. That is NOT the issue- you commit a crime, and everyone in your hometown will know.

The issue is this: imagine your friend, wanting to rebuild his life, decided to start fresh and move- he gets to a new town, and is told he has to sign a register that will be made public to tell everyone what his crime is. Murderers, arsonists, war criminals, burglars, robbers, none of these people have to, but YOU do. That is the issue, the fact that one type of crime is singled out for special, extra punishment. If people honestly believe pedophilia is either an unforgivable act, or inherently uncurable (if it is a disease), then make the punishment life.

quote: Seems to me this is less about privacy than about the assumption that parents of kids are loonies who will lynch ex child molestors.

This is a valid issue-note the very discussion on the thread- what is the issue of knowing? Why not demand the same information about murderers? Burglars? Robbers?

quote: A problem technology has given us. I dont see the answer as at all clear.

Technology did not create a law that demands behavior different from sex offenders than form all other types of criminals. If I kill a man, I can move and don't need to tell every one of my neighbors I am a convicted murderer.

	05-01-2005 02:48									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui You shouldn't be put into a position where the government is basically encouraging vigilanteeism. You should have a right to privacy against that!

So because some loon MIGHT commit an act of vigilantism, I shouldnt be able to tell my kid to be particularly wary of a particular individual? How about we assume people will act intelligently, and then if someone commits an act of vigilantism, we prosecute them and send them to prison?

	05-01-2005 02:49									#72
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Everyone who mattered to him knew, and his street address was not a concern (though they could certainly have found when he bought his house, since that too is public record - they could even find how much he paid for it) And btw, the neighbors arent informed unless they choose to search the database.

depends on the state. The point is there is no database for any other ex-convicts.

And the issue of your friend is irrelevant- for GODS SAKE he was a politician, of course everyone knew him! Thats the point of being a politician!

	05-01-2005 02:49									#73
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quote: You should have a right to privacy against that!

Imran, this is a ridiculous position. By your argument, whenever any specific crime information is made public, the government is encouraging vigilanteeism and is punishing the perp twice.

	05-01-2005 02:49									#74
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quote: Originally posted by GePap depends on the state. The point is there is no database for any other ex-convicts. And the issue of your friend is irrelevant- for GODS SAKE he was a politician, of course everyone knew him! Thats the point of being a politician!

whereas the point of being a child molestor is to slink about in the shadows?

	05-01-2005 02:51									#75
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quote: Originally posted by DanS This is just too damn bizarre position to take. You have no right to privacy for crimes committed as an adult. None! Even if you think you have that right, none will be accorded to you. Y'all have lived in cities for far too long!

	05-01-2005 02:52									#76
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quote: By your argument, whenever any specific crime information is made public, the government is encouraging vigilanteeism.

Whenever there is a specific government database where child molestors are required to register, where as GePap said there is no such database for murderers, war criminals, etc, etc., then yes, the government is encouraging vigilanteeism. I bet that most of the politicians that make such a law don't give a crap if the people who are forced to register get beaten up. They probably feel that is fair.

	05-01-2005 02:53									#77
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quote: How about we assume people will act intelligently, and then if someone commits an act of vigilantism, we prosecute them and send them to prison?

Hear, hear.

quote: Whenever there is a specific government database where child molestors are required to register, where as GePap said there is no such database for murderers, war criminals, etc, etc., then yes, the government is encouraging vigilanteeism.

There should be such a database for other serious crimes.

	05-01-2005 02:55									#78
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quote: How about we assume people will act intelligently

Oh, you were being serious.

	05-01-2005 02:55									#79
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark whereas the point of being a child molestor is to slink about in the shadows?

Your friends case is utterly irrelevant because:

1. He was a public figure-obviously his misdeeds will be in the public scrutiny more than a private citizens
2. The fact everyone knew was based on the very nature of his acts, and not on any law empossing something new.

As for your assertion- someone who gets out of prison after serving their time is a convicted offender, yes, BUT in the eyes of the system, they are now free-their action was in the past-they have payed their dues to society. To demand that they register themselves every time they move to keep track of their movements, and so that everyone else can do so is to state they ARE NOT free-that they are being watched, that their due to society has NOT been paid- why only for sex offenders? Is not murder the greatest crime? Yet murderers don;t have to do so- explain to me why sex offenders should be treated differently form all other criminals?

That is the issue.

	05-01-2005 02:55									#80
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Papers should have the right to anounce convictions, yes, freedom of press. The state also has all the criminal records of an invidiual, so on this point, the state and the individual citizen are equal. That is NOT the issue- you commit a crime, and everyone in your hometown will know. The issue is this: imagine your friend, wanting to rebuild his life, decided to start fresh and move- he gets to a new town, and is told he has to sign a register that will be made public to tell everyone what his crime is. Murderers, arsonists, war criminals, burglars, robbers, none of these people have to, but YOU do. That is the issue, the fact that one type of crime is singled out for special, extra punishment. If people honestly believe pedophilia is either an unforgivable act, or inherently uncurable (if it is a disease), then make the punishment life. quote: Seems to me this is less about privacy than about the assumption that parents of kids are loonies who will lynch ex child molestors. This is a valid issue-note the very discussion on the thread- what is the issue of knowing? Why not demand the same information about murderers? Burglars? Robbers? Technology did not create a law that demands behavior different from sex offenders than form all other types of criminals. If I kill a man, I can move and don't need to tell every one of my neighbors I am a convicted murderer.

Then thats an argument for including other crimes in this. I think including murder would make sense.

and i dont see why the punishment should be life imprisonment. The person MIGHT be cured - some parents just dont want to take the chance, and want to be able to warn their kid to stay away.

Look, if you hire someone you can ask for their criminal record - if you dont like what you see you dont hire them. A parent cant go up to each person in the neighborhood and ask for their criminal record, and refuse them admission to the neighborhood on that basis. All they want is the information to take reasonable precautions. Reincarcerating the person is NOT a reasonable precaution.

And BTW, IF the state has the RIGHT to incarcerate for life WHY doesnt it have the right to impose particular post incarceration, and even post-parole conditions? Why is it obligated to incarcerate, if it sees a life long concern? Why cant there be a life long concern that doesnt require life long incarceration.?

	05-01-2005 02:56									#81
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Does the list give any sort of detail on the conviction, or is everyone convicted of any sort of sex offense lumped in to the list w/o explanation?

If it's the later, the list doesn't seem likely to be of much use beyond scaring people.

-Arrian

	05-01-2005 02:57									#82
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Your friends case is utterly irrelevant because: 1. He was a public figure-obviously his misdeeds will be in the public scrutiny more than a private citizens 2. The fact everyone knew was based on the very nature of his acts, and not on any law empossing something new. As for your assertion- someone who gets out of prison after serving their time is a convicted offender, yes, BUT in the eyes of the system, they are now free-their action was in the past-they have payed their dues to society. To demand that they register themselves every time they move to keep track of their movements, and so that everyone else can do so is to state they ARE NOT free-that they are being watched, that their due to society has NOT been paid- why only for sex offenders? Is not murder the greatest crime? Yet murderers don;t have to do so- explain to me why sex offenders should be treated differently form all other criminals? That is the issue.

Fine, add murder to the statute.

	05-01-2005 02:58									#83
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quote: As for your assertion- someone who gets out of prison after serving their time is a convicted offender, yes, BUT in the eyes of the system, they are now free-their action was in the past-they have payed their dues to society.

I don't know how it is in New York, but in my neck of the woods, felons have additional punishment, such as not being able to vote.

	05-01-2005 02:58									#84
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quote: There should be such a database for other serious crimes.

"serious" To be decided by you, right? Just felonies? Well I think some misdemenors are serious as well. How about we just put in a database EVERYONE'S crimes, no matter when they did it or what the penalty was. Then we could type in names and find out all we wanted.

How is someone who wants to reform themselves supposed to do so if his crime is guarenteed to follow him around everywhere?

	05-01-2005 02:59									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Does the list give any sort of detail on the conviction, or is everyone convicted of any sort of sex offense lumped in to the list w/o explanation? If it's the later, the list doesn't seem likely to be of much use beyond scaring people. -Arrian

I think this is the most important thing. Enough information should be given so that some context can be inferred. I would always opt for more information from the file rather than less.

	05-01-2005 02:59									#86
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quote: felons have additional punishment, such as not being able to vote.

Which is totally absurd.

	05-01-2005 03:01									#87
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quote: "serious" To be decided by you, right? Just felonies? Well I think some misdemenors are serious as well. How about we just put in a database EVERYONE'S crimes, no matter when they did it or what the penalty was. Then we could type in names and find out all we wanted.

If the dividing line was felonies only, I would be fine with that. If there was no dividing line at all, I would be fine with that as well.

	05-01-2005 03:02									#88
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I think this is the most important thing. Enough information should be given so that some context can be inferred. I would always opt for more information from the file rather than less.

I'm actually not sure where I stand on the privacy debate you guys are having - I have to think about that more - so I figured I'd have a look at the practical side. And if it's just a big list w/o any sort of distinction between crimes, then that side doesn't look very good.

-Arrian

	05-01-2005 03:05									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: There should be such a database for other serious crimes. "serious" To be decided by you, right? Just felonies? Well I think some misdemenors are serious as well. How about we just put in a database EVERYONE'S crimes, no matter when they did it or what the penalty was. Then we could type in names and find out all we wanted. How is someone who wants to reform themselves supposed to do so if his crime is guarenteed to follow him around everywhere?

Its a tradeoff. You balance the likely cost in rehabilitation against the benefits in precautions. Thats the legislatures job. Note that in the case of employment, we give the employer the right to ask for criminal records, and REFUSE to hire the individual, which probably has a more negative impact on self reform than all the parents asking their little tikes to avoid the ex child molestor. Its cause this is state action that theres an issue, NOT cause theres a problem with self reform.

	05-01-2005 03:05									#90
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Then thats an argument for including other crimes in this. I think including murder would make sense.

No, thats an arguement for whether it should be done for ANY crime.

quote: and i dont see why the punishment should be life imprisonment. The person MIGHT be cured - some parents just dont want to take the chance, and want to be able to warn their kid to stay away.

Its not up to parents to decide that- a trial decided that. Society said the person has paid their dues. If parents want to be vigilant, then do a search on every neighbor,it will cost you a few bucks, but you can easily do it, and find out everything about them, everything using a private system. This is about what the State states the problem remaining is.

quote: Look, if you hire someone you can ask for their criminal record - if you dont like what you see you dont hire them. A parent cant go up to each person in the neighborhood and ask for their criminal record, and refuse them admission to the neighborhood on that basis. All they want is the information to take reasonable precautions. Reincarcerating the person is NOT a reasonable precaution.

You don;t have the right to refuse to let someone into a neighborhood unless its a cooperative neighborhood in which all share holders have a right decide who buys shares. The very fact you said this shows WHY this law is wrong- its tramples on basic rights, like the right of free association, and freedom of movement, as well as property rights.

quote: And BTW, IF the state has the RIGHT to incarcerate for life WHY doesnt it have the right to impose particular post incarceration, and even post-parole conditions? Why is it obligated to incarcerate, if it sees a life long concern? Why cant there be a life long concern that doesnt require life long incarceration.?

That is a fine question:

Ours is a system of rights- one of them is presumed innocence- there is a reason why a lot of time prior offenses are not allowed in as evidence, because each act is supposed to be seen as an individual action, unless the state can establish that they are all connected to one issue (like say, an incurrable pathology like being a sociopath). Forcing sex offenders to register is to say that they have some sort of pathology which is a public danger, without having actually determined that legally, and thus being forced to take concrete action. Its branding someone. Why not just tatoo it on their face? (and yes, I am very well aware of all the connotations of that statement, and its the very reason I use it)