07-01-2005 04:22									#1
	Thinking Ahead - SL Season #3 Support Apolyton

Hi there.

Since this is my first Super League participation, im not exactly sure when this season will come to an end. But i believe it is a good time to think about changes for next season.

A few suggestions of mine:

Scoring - Early victory bonus

Okay, it's a little early to criticize our scoring system as only the final ranking table will ultimately show how good it was. However, I think the bonus score for early victories has rather had the effect of articially prolonging some games that would otherwise have been early concessions. In my 1x1 game with Checkmate (Spies), Checkmate continued to play when i got ahead in power graph and conceded right at turn 150/151. In my 1x1 game with TheBirdMan (Ancients) it was a little different as I actually won by 4xPG rule, but I have the feeling he might have conceded earlier as well without the rule.
As a substitute I suggest to either axe the bonus score rule altogether or to only give a bonus score equal to the *9 points that would be gained if the leading player stayed in the lead until turn X (turn 150 for example).
With the latter rule, conceding early has exactly the same scoring effect as dragging a lost game out until turn 150. (This assumes the loser will have the lower power graph all the time.) So the lost game can be conceded right away.
With the former variant, conceding early even denies points to the winner. Since he will still gain the game points for the game (1 point for a 1x1 game), this isn't too bad either. The bonus score only influenced the tie-breaker score anyway.

Last edited by Mathemagician on 07-01-2005 at 04:45

	07-01-2005 04:36									#2
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Scoring - .5 scores

As a way to prevent these rather disturbing half numbers (my opinion) one way would be to prevent ties in *9 turn scoring. For example in the case of a tie, a tie-breaker could be used. These could be:
- The player who was higher at the most recent non-tie *9 turn is considered higher.
- The player with the higher seed number (oranger over blue e.g.) is considered higher, as the later seeds tend to have worse starting positions, thus tendentially making the high ranking more valuable.

Victory condition - 4xPG

I'm not exactly sure which 4xPG rule we are using currently, but I suggest that it only count from turns 80-100 onward and has to be held for at least 1 turn.
In the early game it is too easy to play specifically for the power graph advantage. A game could be snuck out this way by number-crunching instead of playing for the stronger civ.

	07-01-2005 06:37									#3
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

i just wanna play

Ill play teams but prefer single games

I have ice cold land why we have to have them settings I cant figure out

BUT..count me in assign me a game (MULTIPLE GAMES) and off we go

Gramps

	07-01-2005 10:13									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I like and agree with all those ideas, Math. Though with screenshots and zooming in ability, have there really still been some ties?

Another method might be to do something like they do in golf skins games. If there's a tie, the points are just left on reserve. The next *9 turn that doesn't have a tie the winner gets all the previous points that had been in limbo previously.

	07-01-2005 19:03									#5
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by FlameFlash I like and agree with all those ideas, Math. Though with screenshots and zooming in ability, have there really still been some ties?

I think so. There were a couple of .5 points occasionally.

quote: Originally posted by FlameFlash Another method might be to do something like they do in golf skins games. If there's a tie, the points are just left on reserve. The next *9 turn that doesn't have a tie the winner gets all the previous points that had been in limbo previously.

That sounds like a reasonable idea too. However, it requires additional management by the moderator (Checkmate),as he must remember these ties until a long time after they actually appear.

	07-01-2005 22:13									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Not really.

If we did a better job of reporting our *9 turns by maybe posting a running tally of each game we'd be able to improve the speed at which points were tallied.

ie.

FlameFlash v. Math

Math & FF T9 TIE
Math T19 POINTx2
FF T29 POINT
Math & FF T39 TIE
FF T49 POINTx2
Math T59 POINT

	08-01-2005 02:08									#7
	Tired of ads?

I see.
Also, if we collect all *9 turn saves until the game ends, we'd be able to post all these at once.

	08-01-2005 02:12									#8
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

or better yet start the game already

ok

i'll be quiet

	08-01-2005 02:15									#9
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

dear Troll, we are talking about SL season #3 here. it will only start when season #2 is over. or at best a bit before that.

	08-01-2005 02:17									#10
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Mathemagician dear Troll, we are talking about SL season #3 here. it will only start when season #2 is over. or at best a bit before that.

Dear Math

Hope the season ended with you in the weiner seat?

L V (canal ) Troll

P S

what exactly are the seasonal dates for a SL?

Gramps

	08-01-2005 19:11									#11
	Re: Thinking Ahead - SL Season #3 Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Mathemagician Hi there. Since this is my first Super League participation, im not exactly sure when this season will come to an end. But i believe it is a good time to think about changes for next season. A few suggestions of mine: Scoring - Early victory bonus Okay, it's a little early to criticize our scoring system as only the final ranking table will ultimately show how good it was. However, I think the bonus score for early victories has rather had the effect of articially prolonging some games that would otherwise have been early concessions. In my 1x1 game with Checkmate (Spies), Checkmate continued to play when i got ahead in power graph and conceded right at turn 150/151. In my 1x1 game with TheBirdMan (Ancients) it was a little different as I actually won by 4xPG rule, but I have the feeling he might have conceded earlier as well without the rule. As a substitute I suggest to either axe the bonus score rule altogether or to only give a bonus score equal to the *9 points that would be gained if the leading player stayed in the lead until turn X (turn 150 for example). With the latter rule, conceding early has exactly the same scoring effect as dragging a lost game out until turn 150. (This assumes the loser will have the lower power graph all the time.) So the lost game can be conceded right away. With the former variant, conceding early even denies points to the winner. Since he will still gain the game points for the game (1 point for a 1x1 game), this isn't too bad either. The bonus score only influenced the tie-breaker score anyway.

Why not have the bonus? It doesn't really prolong the game beyond the longest game. It only prolongs some games that would have been short. I definitly think there should be a reward for winning fast. The latter proposal is better than the former above, but I'm not sure either is necessary. Where we need some thought is on how to get the 2x2's finished sooner, (hopefully without resorting to speed-up mods)

	08-01-2005 19:15									#12
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Mathemagician Scoring - .5 scores As a way to prevent these rather disturbing half numbers (my opinion) one way would be to prevent ties in *9 turn scoring. For example in the case of a tie, a tie-breaker could be used. These could be: - The player who was higher at the most recent non-tie *9 turn is considered higher. - The player with the higher seed number (oranger over blue e.g.) is considered higher, as the later seeds tend to have worse starting positions, thus tendentially making the high ranking more valuable. Victory condition - 4xPG I'm not exactly sure which 4xPG rule we are using currently, but I suggest that it only count from turns 80-100 onward and has to be held for at least 1 turn. In the early game it is too easy to play specifically for the power graph advantage. A game could be snuck out this way by number-crunching instead of playing for the stronger civ.

[a] - How about the team that was behind previously gets the nod since they are making a comeback?

[b] - Banana, actually I don't think there is anything wrong with some number crunching. (you of all people should agreee )

	08-01-2005 19:19									#13
	Inflate your Upload Space

I would like to hear some ideas about moderating the 2x2 games so that they don't stall.

Perhaps each team will have one player who is also a moderator. The moderator will moderate one random 2x2 game. Moderators are encouraged to "next" the crap out everybody who is slacking? I would propose a 48-hour rule for this.

Perhaps the random moderation assighment could change periodically so that no moderator can pick on any team for too long.

	08-01-2005 19:50									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

or..

agree that if a game becomes stalled and no contact then the teammate plays the turn

"IF" both teamates fail to show in a predetermined time frame then the games gets forfeited

then if the missing players show backup simply start a new game

I am just utterly amazed how anyone can stand a game going on for 50 turns in a year..

jusy my $0.02 worth

Gramps

	09-01-2005 00:55									#15
	Re: Re: Thinking Ahead - SL Season #3 Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by checkMate Why not have the bonus? It doesn't really prolong the game beyond the longest game. It only prolongs some games that would have been short. I definitly think there should be a reward for winning fast. The latter proposal is better than the former above, but I'm not sure either is necessary.

well, it may not be necessary. but if the latter rule (bonus points equal to the missed *9 turns until turn 150) encourages finishing games (by concecssion) while not actually making anything worse, i think its a good idea.

quote: Originally posted by checkMate Where we need some thought is on how to get the 2x2's finished sooner, (hopefully without resorting to speed-up mods)

thats a point too. just i dont have any good idea about it.

---

quote: Originally posted by checkMate [a] - How about the team that was behind previously gets the nod since they are making a comeback?

thats an option too. i guess we will have some polls again once season 3 closes in. so far, let me hear all suggestions you may have.

quote: Originally posted by checkMate [b] - Banana, actually I don't think there is anything wrong with some number crunching. (you of all people should agreee )

i meant that it would be possibly by winning a game simply by finding an early unit with a high number of power points (such as a knight for example) and/or letting a few cities grow as larger cities count more in PG than a couple of 1-cities.
i remember 1 or 2 games where i was occasionally 4xPG aheaf before i even met my opponent, somewhere around turns 30-60 or so i think.

quote: Originally posted by checkMate I would like to hear some ideas about moderating the 2x2 games so that they don't stall. Moderators are encouraged to "next" the crap out everybody who is slacking? I would propose a 48-hour rule for this.

i dont like the idea of being nexted after 48 hours in a competitively quite relevant game like SL 2x2 games.
i think the real problems are those games that stall for more than a week. so i would suggest combining Checkmate's moderator idea with Troll's thought of "teammate-takes-over". maybe something like this:

24 h - moderator resends
48 h - moderator resends, asking teammate to play the turn, it will be accepted if either player plays the turn
72 h (24 h for teammate) - moderator resends again, this is the regular 'first' resend for player 2
96 h - turn is nexted

plus, maybe some other rule to determine when the game is forfeited and whether it can be picked up later again.
e.g. 2 nextings in a row = forfeit, but if picked up within 2 weeks game could be restored. second forfeit is final.

just some ideas. usually the opinions about the "correct" enforcement level vary quite much.

	09-01-2005 00:56									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Grandpa Troll just my $0.02 worth

you really should get a flatrate.
(spelling correction free today )

	09-01-2005 01:22									#17
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Mathemagician you really should get a flatrate. (spelling correction free today )

Thank you Math..I have been very busy as of late but am now in clear to play all I want for 4 more years..

I will try not to mispell potatoe

Daddy sez he is gonna fill in for me

G.W..er..G.T.

	13-01-2005 23:55									#18
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

in case we are going to continue the principle of teaming up a stronger with a weaker player, we could number these players as A and B seat, being the supposedly stronger and weaker player, respectively. this way the 1x1 games could be played on relatively even levels between the two A seat and the two B seat players, respectively.

	14-01-2005 08:11									#19
	Weak,Frail & Senile.."B" Da Grandpa Troll Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Thanks

	14-01-2005 22:16									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

you're welcome. on special request, we could of course introduce a C seat too.

	14-01-2005 22:30									#21
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

How about a J seat? That would suit me

Serosly, the idea is great, Math.

	15-01-2005 01:38									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Mathemagician you're welcome. on special request, we could of course introduce a C seat too.

ya know..to me CTP is like Fishing

some fish for the catch some for the money associated with the catch and me to fish is a chance to catch some relaxation..

Thats why i play to relax and I do have fun..up to the time my screenie gets nuked to Black Oblivion
Thats why I prefer this: