14-01-2005 02:57									#211
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quote: Originally posted by Saras And food in your local store is created out of nothing onsite?

If you're in an enclosed community (say Royston Vasey ) then roads do not benefit you. Moreover, if you want to talk about indirectly, welfare benefits everybody by meaning they don't have to fall over the homeless while walking back from work, nor do they fear for the high crime rates to the same extent. If those that don't own a car benefit from roads, those that don't claim welfare benefit from it existing.

	14-01-2005 02:58									#212
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quote: Originally posted by Odin Libertarians like thier "personal rights", especially thier right to f*ck the rights of others. Libertarianism is unstable, it would creat a permanent underclass that would become more and more radical untill KABOOM.

OMG TEH WELL REASONED PWNAGE!1!!1!!!

	14-01-2005 05:13									#213
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse It is perhaps the greatest triumph of the Republican Party that a majority of ordinary Americans are quite convinced of this. Meanwhile the middle class shrinks, the underclass grows and the super rich, like the Bush family, are laughing all the way to the country club. Most ordinary citizens in Western countries enjoy a far higher standard of living and quality of life than ordinary Americans - and Americans either don't believe it or, rather perversely, are damn proud of it. Is it any wonder your average European thinks your average Americans are quite stupid? How is such a gap between rich and poor possible in the richest country in the world? The whole world wonders about that - except Americans.

Far higher standard of living?

Better quality of life?

Please help me out here with a few statistics. On the latter point, I might tend to agree because America has a lot of crime that make life hard in the cities. But standard of living? The US middle class has about the same income as other Western middle classes, but our costs here on average are lower. So how does that work out to a lower standard of living?

	14-01-2005 09:45									#214
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go and have a look at quality of life surveys

	14-01-2005 09:59									#215
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Here you are Ned, not one US city in the top 10 in this quality of life survey, highest ranked is 24th in the world

http://www.mercerhr.com/summary.jht...Content/1128760

	14-01-2005 10:10									#216
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quote: Is it any wonder your average European thinks your average Americans are quite stupid? How is such a gap between rich and poor possible in the richest country in the world? The whole world wonders about that - except Americans.

Then again the US isn't really obsessed with class envy like so many other countries are and we're better off because of it. Why do you think the US dominates so many industries and fields? Why does the US have more start ups each year then most other countries? Why do our businesses tend to grow faster and hire more people?

Could it be that our economic model actually does a good job at doing what we want it to do? Italy has been spending huge sums of GDP for decades givng welfare to the southern half of the country and it hasn't done a bit of good. The south is still just as poor compared to the north as before. You, Horse, place far to much faith in soaking the rich to give hand outs to the poor and to little faith in fostering economic growth to help raise all ships.

	14-01-2005 10:14									#217
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Here you are Ned, not one US city in the top 10 in this quality of life survey, highest ranked is 24th in the world

I like apples because they are crisp and deliciious but oranges are mushy and nasty so I don't like them. Do you think personal prefrences could play a part in what someone considers to be the "best quality of life"? Obviously, it does.

Some surveys weight certain things more while others weight entirely different things. Amazingly enough they come up with totally different conclusions about what is best. You should be able to figure this out Horse.

	14-01-2005 10:20									#218
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The real anwser is what place is best for you and your family? Ideally the survey would allow me to weight each factor according to my own feelings for how important that factor is. Some people might not be able to live without an opera house near by and some people feel a pro-sports team is a must. Having big rankings saying one city is better then another is nothing more then arrogantly attempting to force your opinion of what is most important onto everyone else.

That's why those "reports" have always been junk and will always be junk.

	14-01-2005 11:19									#219
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Then again the US isn't really obsessed with class envy like so many other countries are and we're better off because of it.

On the contrary, most Americans live in a class dream world where most sincerely believe they are in the middle class when they clearly are not, just working stiffs who have bought a dream - see Death of a Salesman - and vote for Bush - who is only looking after his friends.

quote: Could it be that our economic model actually does a good job at doing what we want it to do? Italy has been spending huge sums of GDP for decades givng welfare to the southern half of the country and it hasn't done a bit of good. The south is still just as poor compared to the north as before.

Untrue - Italy still has pockets of poverty but on average a far higher standard of living across the board than say the Red States in the US. Its a major national delusion you have there. An ordinary citizen living in the South of Italy is far better off than citizen living in the South of the USA.

Your "economic model" does what is good for the wealthy and for corporate America.

quote: You, Horse, place far to much faith in soaking the rich to give hand outs to the poor and to little faith in fostering economic growth to help raise all ships.

I said no such thing at any stage - again these are your own myths and fears speaking. You live in a fantasy world called USA! USA! USA! Its laughable.

Australia btw is currently on top or near the top of every OECD economic indicator including productivity. We work harder than you and still manage to look after our citizens in a social sense. I am enjoying my 7 week paid leave btw - thanks for asking!

If your economic model is so wonderful, can you tell me why the richest country in world has a massive underclass? And why aren't you ashamed of that?

NEXT!

	14-01-2005 11:54									#220
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Who defines quality of life?

That's the most important question here. Some people might define their life as having high quality with 2 tvs, a dishwasher, microwave and a computer. Others might see quality of life as something different, as having a close family, and a social network of friends.

How do you quantify these things? You can poll people on whether they like their country, but that measure is entirely subjective, as for some people, a paradise would be pitiful, and vice versa.

I don't see any measure, across the country as a whole that will adequately measure quality of life, because individuals vary in their preferences.

	14-01-2005 12:24									#221
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse On the contrary, most Americans live in a class dream world where most sincerely believe they are in the middle class when they clearly are not, just working stiffs who have bought a dream - see Death of a Salesman - and vote for Bush - who is only looking after his friends.

I'd say I live a very good life and before you ask, yes, I have traveled most of the world and even lived in several different parts. I know what I'm talking about when I say the average American lives a very good life. A large house, a decent job, materially they have lots of consumer junk, and good pay.

Sure, we don't have socialized health care so some leftist think tanks put us on the bottom of their quality of life lists so they can advicate socialized health care. That doesn't mean their lists are worth the paper they're written on. Just about everyone but illegal aliens, drug addicted people, and high school drop outs manage to get some form of health care. I'l do my bit to help vote for greater access and I don't like Bush but you seem to have let your personal hatred for Bush throw your entire outlook of a country off.

After reading your posts it seems clear that you really don't know what life is like here nor are you interested in finding out the truth. So, hey man, enjoy your fantasy.

	14-01-2005 12:25									#222
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quote: I said no such thing at any stage - again these are your own myths and fears speaking. You live in a fantasy world called USA! USA! USA! Its laughable.

I know you enjoy trollling AH but you've gotten lazy lately. You need to take a nap so you can regain your creative spark.

	14-01-2005 13:34									#223
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse If your economic model is so wonderful, can you tell me why the richest country in world has a massive underclass? And why aren't you ashamed of that?

Horse, I don't know if we invented the reservation system, but we have used it to warehouse Indians, blacks and the poor in ghettos from which they never have to emerge due to our welfare system. People in this system live in a society apart. They never have to integrate or be part of mainstream society to live poor, but decent lives.

Richard Nixon, of all people, called this welfare system evil in that it prevented true integration. He proposed instead affirmative action in order to integrate the disadvantaged into society. This has worked, to an extent. But its complete success has been blocked by the existence of our welfare system and the ghettos and reservations it maintains.

	14-01-2005 13:49									#224
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There's no doubt that certain types of welfare are needed. Everyone needs an education and the unemployed need temperary relief, as do mother's with children, but that relief needs to be temperary help not a life long entitlement. I'm highly in favor of life long job retraining and free college educations for everyone who's willing to put hard work into it and get good grades. If you get below a 3.0 though then you aren't trying very hard and you can screw around on someone else's nickle.

In other words social programs are best when they help people regain the ability to provide for themselves instead of making them long term wards of the state. I'd provide dirt cheap small business loans to help create jobs both in the ghetto and every where else plus I'd make sure everyone who wanted an education got a free one.

	14-01-2005 14:23									#225
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What the people of the reservations need is an end to welfare as we know it. I would rather put the money into subsidizing business that was willing to locate on the reservation or in the ghetto and provide jobs to the locals.

We also have to end our "separate-but-equal" education system in the US that provides mediocre public education for the poor and good private education for the middle class and above. The fix is obvious and is supported my most minorities -- vouchers that will enable them to attend the same private schools that the middle class kids do.

Last edited by Ned on 14-01-2005 at 14:55

	14-01-2005 14:35									#226
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin [q] I know you enjoy trollling AH but you've gotten lazy lately. You need to take a nap so you can regain your creative spark.

I agree

But I've had some fun. Thank you for playing