08-01-2005 11:54									#1
	2155 End Turn and 2156 Discussion Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

The turn is here.

Attachment: acdg3-morgans-2155.zip
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	08-01-2005 12:26									#2
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We started HEC. Can somebody please test out what diplomatic choices we have with Lal and Zak? Zak is down to three bases, and only one of them has any defenders. He might be desperate for friends, and loose with his techs. Use this mid-turn save...

Attachment: acdg3-morgans-2155_midturn.zip
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	08-01-2005 12:29									#3
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I was planning on moving our new CP way over to the east of SSR. It's our meatiest target (except for our capital) and fairly exposed. This would give us some warning of an invasion. Sensors will be put down eventually, too, but we don't have a lot of formers over there yet.

Attachment: 2155_central.jpg
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	08-01-2005 22:55									#4
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So then let's make some formers...

I call myself a lucky diplomat today. Contacted Zak out of curiosity.
He demands AdapEcon, I gave it in exchange for Non-linear Math. Worked.
He asked for a Treaty, I agreed, but he got seething. Over and Out.

Contacted Zak again immediately, he is back to non-committal. I desired access to his research data, tried HEC against our maps but didn't work. Optical Computers against our maps worked and HEC for 100 credits, worked, too. He stayed Noncommittal throughout the negotiation.

After that, we may select SFF in our research screen and will get it in 5-7 years, depending on lab points allocation.

I guess it would make a good article about negotiations with the newly elected (or provisorial or whatever the state is) government of the Uni.

	08-01-2005 23:57									#5
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Give me some time to see if I can work some diplomacy with Sparta before we play the turn.


Mead

	09-01-2005 00:23									#6
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Ok, thanks, AndiD, but help me with exactly what we can and can't do. Was that all one sequence, or did you reload to try asking for different things?

Can we get HEC for 100ec without doing the Opt Comp and map trade? Another faction could easily get Zak's map. Or skip Adap Econ for Nonlinear? That one isn't essential after SFF. (Impact Noodles are cheap and handy, though.)

***

Ok, Mead.

	09-01-2005 02:30									#7
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All one sequence in the first try (contacting him twice in that sequence as indicated by "Over and out").

Tried a few more now (hope this was allowed) and no change:
HEC seems to come in third position all the time (with Nonlinear and OptComp always beforehand) and I couldn't do anything but trade AdapEcon, maps and then 100 ec in that order. We simply don't have enough to offer, as it seems...

	09-01-2005 06:32									#8
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I downloaded the turn and took a look.

I could do no better than Andid with the AI negotiations.

We need HEC and Non Linerar to better armour and arm ourselves but I fear that if we give up the maps they will find their way to Sparta almost immediately.

Oh well, lets get the techs.

With HEC we are a lot closer to SFF and aircraft, right?

Plus, with HEC we get 3 armor, right?


I do question why we are not building more gator boats and rover chasis probes. We should be building gator boats in every port (except choke on this). We should not be building infantry chassis probes rather rover chassis probes.

Mead


PS
No word back yet from Sparta on diplo efforts.


Mead

	09-01-2005 08:19									#9
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$%#@& aaaarrrrrrrrrggggg

Zak was not nearly as cooperative with me. Crap. I got nothing. That's the second time I haven't gotten the same diplo response as other people. What gives?!

$&#%@

	09-01-2005 08:23									#10
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Maybe we could ask the Mods if somebody else can do the diplo part and use it. It doesn't seem fair that I don't get the same responses. How are we supposed to handle diplomacy? We seem at a disadvantage if it won't duplicate on my machine.

That reminds me... Sparta had 2 reloads on the last two turns. What's up with that?

	09-01-2005 08:27									#11
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jtsisyoda, are you moving units then trying diplo? That might mess up the random seed. Just a thought.

-- CTO #endgame

	09-01-2005 11:14									#12
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quote: It is allowed to build a turn simulator, where you can test out battle results or strategic plans years in advance. It is also allowed to use parallel turns of the official game to test out AI diplomacy (with the exception that you can't accept AI world map offers or trades) or some innocent internal affairs orders (crawler & former movements etc). However it is NOT allowed to use the official game turns to play ahead by eg testing out battle orders, scouting with units, or for example moving your probe units to check the probe cost of something and only then decide whether or not you're going to probe it. In clarification: Any exploring, military trials or probe actions, is not allowed. Testing former orders and AI diplomacy (without accepting any deal) is allowed. For anything else, check with Drogue before hand.

Looks to me as though you're in contravention of that rule...

Other than that though, it makes no difference to me who does the turn-playing.

	09-01-2005 17:01									#13
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As Method said, AndiD's actions are in contravention of this. You may test any AI diplomacy, with as many people, as many times as you want, but you may not accept any deal. If you do accept a deal, that turn becomes the real turn. Therefore, if AndiD still has his turn from the first attempt - ie. he saved it after he did the 3 deals - then you may use that as the real turn. However that means jtsisyoda's turn, and AndiD's retry, were breaking the rules, by accepting deals without being the turn that will be passed on. Therefore, if that save exists, you *must* use AndiD's turn, as it was the first try.

However, if the first try (AndiD's) does not exist, due to it not being saved, then with multiple tries I take the worst option, which seems like jtsisyoda's turn.


It's like popping a pod, if you do it repeatedly, and the first turn exists, that is the one that will count, and the others will be discarded and punishment brought as applicable. IMHO, since this seems like a lack of knowledge of the rules (please read them!) I am willing to consider this a first warning, and without punishment, whichever turn is used.

In short, no, you may not replay, as you have accepted a deal before. If the firts turn exists, it must be use, which would saved after AndiD's first attempt. If it does not, jtsisyoda's turn must be used.

As a side note, in the old CC, we had someone try diplomacy without accepting something, and if they got the desired result, we accepted it, and then used that as the official turn. As in AndiD would have sent you his turn, having accepted that, and you'd use that turn. However having accepted any deal, you may not then replay the turn.

	09-01-2005 21:26									#14
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No I haven't saved anything and thanks for the clarification...

	09-01-2005 22:21									#15
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In that case use jtsisyoda's turn, and try with the AI diplo next year. Remember you can test what the AI will say, and if they say the right thing, use that as the official turn, and if they don't, do not accept and get someone else to play the turn

	09-01-2005 22:30									#16
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Ok, sorry about that. I had forgotten that part about accepting deals. I guess I never understood why it would matter (since you wouldn't necessarily use the tester's turn), so it didn't sink in. This is precisely the situation where it would matter. ...I'll use my turn, then, since it's the only saved.

And #endgame, I think you might be right-- I think I moved that CP then did the diplo. Which means I may have royally screwed us out of HEC. Hopefully in the next few turns we'll be able to try again. If not, I beg you to shoot me and put me out of my misery.

	10-01-2005 05:11									#17
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I set the sliders to 30econ/20psych/50labs, going from 121ec/turn to 93, and HEC completes in 6 instead of 7 turns. The only thing the midturn save doesn't include is the rush-builds, which are shown here:

Attachment: 2155_f4.jpg
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	10-01-2005 23:35									#18
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Have we trained three units per base yet?

	11-01-2005 08:42									#19
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We don't have three garrisons per base, if that's what you mean?

	11-01-2005 12:52									#20
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Yes. That is what I mean.

	18-01-2005 00:40									#21
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Ok, the new turn is here. See the new thread for the file if you want to download it. Feel free to try diplomacy with Zak and Lal, but remember, don't accept any deals. But if you do, then save that turn and post it as the official mid-turn. We're trying to get HEC. Let me know what works. TIA.