11-01-2005 21:46									#1
	Use of Legoland territory Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Apart from resources, territory for domination, and commerce from taxman / scientists, we can get production out of Legoland as well.

Suppose the land is divided between GoW and us. Surely, we can keep some of the land unsettled, and in the dark. So, we can make sure we start to run into barbarians again.

Further, on Legoland, there will be enough cities, of size 1, set to 1 tax man, no fpt. In these, you can draft at a reliable tempo, and because of our lux, will not run into happiness problems. (we should really look into this for producing defenders, there is no cheaper way)

Those conscript MI can't blitz, which is a shame, but they can attack barbs and run away, still leaving the area dark next turn (meaning more barbs possible). We could even keep the camps if they are unreachable for GoW, and farm the barbs from one camp.

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There is a second reason why we should consider to do some serious drafting in the new cities on Legoland. Even conscript MIs are 110 shields, a quarter of which are returned when you disband them. Imagine having 40 cities, which could draft every 10 turns continuously... apart from the commerce these small cities generate, they also generate an average of 108 spt.

The real numbers are probably even better. It takes a lot of effort, but there might be more we can squeeze out of Legoland.

DeepO

	11-01-2005 21:47									#2
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copy from other thread, to get these posts organized:

quote: What is important on Legoland, apart from resources, and tiles if you want to go for domination: Food. It won't produce commerce or production anyway, so only food really counts. Every irr grass we can use, is one tax man, or 1 gpt. I don't know how exactly the division is that GoW is proposing, but I strongly suggest that we demand to get the same, or more food tiles. So we just count every bonus resource, and every grass, plain, and fp tile, and use that to calculate the real gain. I don't think we should tell them now, if by coincidence we get more food, and GoW only counts tiles, we keep shut, of course. Otherwise, we ask for proper compensation (i.e. more land) When settling RP, we better make sure they get normal land, and we get the food tiles ourselves. Also, we need loads of cities, possibly even Borging it. There might be some 150 gpt to be made from Legoland.

DeepO

	11-01-2005 21:50									#3
	Re: Use of Legoland territory Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by DeepO apart from the commerce these small cities generate, they also generate an average of 108 spt.

BTW, this hidden spt doesn't show up in the F11 screen either.

Oh, and we can bluf too: if the others have spies (which either they already have, or will come soon), a conscript MI is seen as a vet MI. draft 100 MI on Legoland, and GoW-ND think we've got an impossible army to overcome. (the cost of this bluff is of course 100 spt, which is something far more problematic)

DeepO

	11-01-2005 23:18									#4
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How does one draft from pop1 towns? I thought you could only do so at pop7 or higher...

	12-01-2005 01:30									#5
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I thought so too, but haven't really drafted much lately. The draft/disband tactic is a good one and we'll definitely use it in areas we control. Cities on the rivers can build their own Marketplaces, the Aquaducts and Marketplaces for the others as well. Then we can draft away.

The barb farming is a good use too. Does anyone still have the scenario I made long ago? I think it would be a good idea to test out where barbs will pop up and keep a minimal area open for them to be in.

If we can get RP set up on Lego though I think we should. Build up some cities (everything but culture improvements) for them then trade Lego lands for the ones on Stormia. We'd keep the Rubber, and hopefully an area for barb Farming.

Also, are there any deal restrictions on us getting RP to the Modern Era ASAP? They could research a tech at 40 turn pace for us. Once we get Miniaturization they could go for Genetics and open up the Wonders (prebuilds) for us without delaying the Space Race. I would prefer it if RP had MI of their own too, and there is spare Oil they can claim on Lego that sounds like it falls on our side. If there are deal restrictions then perhaps we could offer to buy rights to the tech(s) to sell to RP.

The problem is if RP looks too much like our lapdog. Then we become more of a target if RP+GS looks too strong for either GoW or ND alone.

	12-01-2005 01:47									#6
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I think they already see RP as our lap dog, so I would not worry about that. Lets get them up to speed in tech as soon as it is allowed.

Having at least one city on each contient will make it hard to eliminate RP for vote purposes.

	12-01-2005 05:57									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus How does one draft from pop1 towns? I thought you could only do so at pop7 or higher...

Okay, I forgot about that in my enthousiasm. You're right of course... it limits the grand visions I had of conscripts running around everywhere, but the idea is still workable, I think

DeepO

	12-01-2005 06:13									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson I thought so too, but haven't really drafted much lately. The draft/disband tactic is a good one and we'll definitely use it in areas we control. Cities on the rivers can build their own Marketplaces, the Aquaducts and Marketplaces for the others as well. Then we can draft away.

One major problem in all of this is that we are limited in cash, and should avoid to use any on Legoland for rushing, unless we're very certain it will pay of in the long run. Rushing markets is very expensive.

Can we draft without markets? Otherwise, river cities should get priority, and we should boost these in pop asap. Conscripts can then be used to rush markets.

We also have to watch out with efficiency. Pop 7 cities can work 3 irr grasses, leaving 4 taxmen. That's in total 5 cpt (scientists if we want beakers instead of gold). building a market to sustain more pop costs 1 gpt, building an aqua the same.

OTOH, if we build 2 size 3 cities using in total 4 grass (2 of which irr), we won't need markets. Each city has 2 taxmen, plus the basic city commerce for 3 cpt. In total, that gets us to 6 gpt on the same piece of ground. So, possibility to draft in cities is worse for the total commerce, it balances out.

My feeling is that whenever we need to build aquas, we better don't draft and go for the commerce. And if we can, don't use markets. But it remains a choice, if we want to go for more military, we can leave the extra commerce and focus on drafting.

So, in this, I think we best come up with a plan where size 7 cities (ideally using 4 tiles total) hug a river. Use these as drafting centra, while all the rest of the land is divided to maximize taxmen use (i.e. ideally size 3 cities, each using 2 tiles) In all hill areas, we go for size 2 cities.

There could be further exceptions if we could get a city to give some more through the building of CHs, markets, caths and PSs. I doubt it will work well.

DeepO

	12-01-2005 06:21									#9
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quote: The barb farming is a good use too. Does anyone still have the scenario I made long ago?

Which one do you mean? I've got everything of GS that was at one time or another distributed, so I should have scenarios as well. I found one of 25 BC on my disk, is this the one you want?

quote: If we can get RP set up on Lego though I think we should. Build up some cities (everything but culture improvements) for them then trade Lego lands for the ones on Stormia. We'd keep the Rubber, and hopefully an area for barb Farming.

Is it really feasible for them to relocate at this point? They could obviously do a better job at making Legoland productive...

They could also do some barb farming, and start their journey East with drafting. They could use a bunch more defenders, even if they are only conscripts, they could be MI with rubber (which we will have double for another 19 turns if GoW behaves) and oil.

quote: Also, are there any deal restrictions on us getting RP to the Modern Era ASAP? (...) If there are deal restrictions then perhaps we could offer to buy rights to the tech(s) to sell to RP.

Yes there are still restrictions. I don't know by heart, but for flight we still need to wait, I think. we had 20 turn NDAs with GoW, and 20 turns haven't passed yet, have they? Amph. warfare is not important, and radio is ours to give. But we might ask GoW.

quote: The problem is if RP looks too much like our lapdog. Then we become more of a target if RP+GS looks too strong for either GoW or ND alone.

I don't think we can avoid that RP will look like our lapdog. I think we should instead focus on keeping them seem small enough. As long as we can look like we're #3, ND and GoW might forget that RP is also fuelling our economy (and we better stop reminding that to Bob)

DeepO

	12-01-2005 07:27									#10
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO One major problem in all of this is that we are limited in cash, and should avoid to use any on Legoland for rushing, unless we're very certain it will pay of in the long run. Rushing markets is very expensive.

I was talking about drafting/disbanding to rush. I wouldn't spend cash on it.

quote: Can we draft without markets? Otherwise, river cities should get priority, and we should boost these in pop asap. Conscripts can then be used to rush markets.

Yah, I forgot this is playing at Chieftain. So we do have enough happiness for continual rushing at growth to 7 or close to it. We have 4 citizens born content. So at size 6 we have 4 content, 2 unhappy. With 8 Luxuries we have 6 Happy So we can generate 6 unhappy faces every 20 turns.

quote: We also have to watch out with efficiency. Pop 7 cities can work 3 irr grasses, leaving 4 taxmen. That's in total 5 cpt (scientists if we want beakers instead of gold). building a market to sustain more pop costs 1 gpt, building an aqua the same. OTOH, if we build 2 size 3 cities using in total 4 grass (2 of which irr), we won't need markets. Each city has 2 taxmen, plus the basic city commerce for 3 cpt. In total, that gets us to 6 gpt on the same piece of ground. So, possibility to draft in cities is worse for the total commerce, it balances out. My feeling is that whenever we need to build aquas, we better don't draft and go for the commerce. And if we can, don't use markets. But it remains a choice, if we want to go for more military, we can leave the extra commerce and focus on drafting.

I think that until we have all the improvements we need back home that shields from drafting trump commerce. If we draft/disband Banks and Universities we will stay ahead of commerce even.

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I think the best use of the cities is going to be building them up for RP though. Whatever we can get out of them drafting/disbanding and with specialists RP could get out of them x3 or x4, and we also will get as much or more from Stormia N as we will be giving up.

	12-01-2005 07:36									#11
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO quote: The barb farming is a good use too. Does anyone still have the scenario I made long ago? Which one do you mean? I've got everything of GS that was at one time or another distributed, so I should have scenarios as well. I found one of 25 BC on my disk, is this the one you want?

One where the map is fleshed out a bit. I think I had one where the outline of Lego was present along with all of Bob and Stormia, with the tile coords exactly what they are in the real game. That would be the one to use.

quote: Is it really feasible for them to relocate at this point? They could obviously do a better job at making Legoland productive

I think it is if we get out of Mobilization soon. Depends on how long the game is going to last. If the game is over in 20 turns... well we're on the losing end of that if it's not a UN vote, and setting RP up on Lego wouldn't interfere with that anyways.

	12-01-2005 14:37									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson Yah, I forgot this is playing at Chieftain. So we do have enough happiness for continual rushing at growth to 7 or close to it. We have 4 citizens born content. So at size 6 we have 4 content, 2 unhappy. With 8 Luxuries we have 6 Happy So we can generate 6 unhappy faces every 20 turns.

It's even more, I think (but correct me if I'm wrong, I never truelly figured out the unhappiness things). Some of the citizens will be taxmen, or could even become entertainers.

quote: I think that until we have all the improvements we need back home that shields from drafting trump commerce. If we draft/disband Banks and Universities we will stay ahead of commerce even.

It will depend on the speed at which we draft, but 6 x 27 shields over 20 turns costing 2 gpt (so 40 g) is a good bargain. But it will still depend on where those shields are spent, improvements on Stormia are always good, and most likely disbands to seed builds (e.g. SA, where a MI disband can lead to a 100 spt city) are good uses too.

quote: I think the best use of the cities is going to be building them up for RP though. Whatever we can get out of them drafting/disbanding and with specialists RP could get out of them x3 or x4, and we also will get as much or more from Stormia N as we will be giving up.

That's a given. We can be creative and play to the limit to squeeze the last resource out of the continent, but RP will always do better if they watch where they are playing.

DeepO

	12-01-2005 14:47									#13
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ok, I sent the scenario I got to your yahoo address. I don't think it's the right one, though, it is named 25 BC, but creation date suggests it's from 975 BC, at which time we only knew part of Stormia.

I'll continue the search

DeepO

	12-01-2005 14:54									#14
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That seems to be all I've got. If there was a later scenario, I don't think it was distributed.

DeepO