12-01-2005 06:54									#1
	Alternate GO- discussion, signup Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

The idea of this game is to introduce new concepts to GO w/o messing with the original, as of yet anyway. I've got several ideas that I'd like to try, but anyone is certainly welcome to throw in other ideas. Some ideas I plan to include unless players are strongly and overwhemingly against them.

And if there isn't much interest generated then we'll just leave it as a discussion thread only.

Since I plan to do a lot more writing (like Ljube's games) I doubt I'll include a graphical representation like Smiley's. But depending on how his works and how easily I can adapt it, I might do both.

The central theme will be built around an old board game, which most of you probably haven't heard of, Star Fleet Battles. You probably have heard of it's computer game successor, Star Fleet Command. In this game, tho, there won't be any of the usual suspects (Feds, Klingons, etc.) since those were worn thin last time. It will be a Lyran civil war with a few of their neighbors involved instead.

The races will all have some small bonuses and penalties, like assassins.
---------------

Proposals:

A. SPIES

1. As an alternate idea to the anti-spy center, using a spy in a counter-espionage role that lasts for (2?) turns.

2. Unknown spy origin

3. Spies can gather spy/shield stockpile info. This would be instead of normal sabotage of operations.

B. BASES & BP GENERATION

1. Maximum build/turn for bases; ex. twice their BP generation. So a regular base could build 10 tonnes of ships/turn, given sufficient BP's. problem: extra complication for GM and players to track.

2. Allow captured bases to build 1 ff/turn. This would fit with the idea of a build limit, and give players in an underdog position a better chance of regrouping.

3. Remove the build limit on bases: Most players stop at 5 anyway.

4. Allow for 4 classes of bases: captured, starbase, battlestation, and space fortress, as well as upgrades between each. Captured generates 2 BP, SB=3, BS=4, and SF=5. Cost to build is x3 the BP generation. Upgrade is 3 BPs each, except for captured to starbase which costs 5 BP. problem: As above, only more so.

5. Winner of a combat gets Salvage, which equals 1/20 of enemy BP destroyed.

6. Bases may be destroyed. A player might do so if he feels that he will not hold onto them for much longer. Players would announce this in their PM along with orders. A destroyed base is worth 4 BPs, in addition to the 2/5 generated that turn. The BPs are not available until the following turn, and then only if the player is not forced to withdraw from the base area.

C. COMBAT

1. Allowing for an 'attack' to defend an ally. It counts as an attack, but allows players to combine fleets for defence in a given location where an attack is suspected.

2. Fleeing FTTD: Allow for players to announce in their orders to flee FTTD if attacked (not when attacking). This would happen if they take more damage in the 1st round than give. They then flee automatically, foregoing any additional rounds of combat. The downside is that flee all their bases and in addition the attacker gets one additional segment to assault them at x2 strength.

3. New combat matchups: Currently the LTF matchups are x2 vs. an opponent when different weapon types meet; i.e. lasers are x2 vs. fighters.

I don't like it because one can get results WAY beyond the scope of their fleet.
I also think it's silly when 0 lasers meet 20 torpedos the torpedos get a bonus.

I feel that instead of those weapons doing more damage, the others should do less. So I propose that in a situation where different weapon types meet, the inferior one does 1/2 damage, up to twice the superior weapon amount.

FE, 20 lasers - 60 fighters
old method-> 40 L - 60 F
new method-> 20L - 40 F
Because twice the amount of the lasers is 40, so half of that amount of fighters does no damage.
If their were 30 lasers then:
30L- 60F becomes
30L - 30F

And if there were 50 lasers:
50L - 60F becomes
50L - 30F

4. Lasers re-examined: Lasers, combined with tactics, have an unfair advantage IMHO. Lasers with tactics of close in, spread out, will equal or defeat ANY OoB of ANY weapon when matched up. And if the fool forgets to back off, it's even worse. Consider( all orders close in, spread out):

100L - 100L
all tactics are equal, no damage to either.

100L - 100F
with back off: both sides =200, no damage.
normal distance selected for fighters: Fighters take 200 damage.
Close in selected for fighters: Fighters take 600(!) damage.

100L - 100T
with back off: both sides =100, no damage.
with normal: torps take 100 damage.
with close in: torps take 300 damage.

Therefore I'd like to make this change:
1 side close in =*1 1/2 damage
2 sides close in =*2 damage.

1 side back off =*.75 damage
2 sides back off =*.5 damage

D. RACIAL MODS

1. Lyrans: All ships carry the expanding sphere generator (ESG). This weapon damages all solid material it comes in contact with. It has no effect on energy weapons.
Usage: For one segment (and one ONLY) per combat a Lyran player can mark an OoB with a (*). This indicates the round he wishes to use his ESGs. So an OoB might look like:
LL*T-FFT
indicating the player wishes to use it in the 2nd segment.
Game effect: The ESG will reduce the strength of the enemy's fighters or torpedos to 75% that segment. It has no effect on lasers.
Penalties: Lyran players may not ally with any Kzinti or Hydran players. Certain clans start out with non-aggression pacts with other clans.
ESGs cannot be used with the 'bunch together' command, as they will dissipate each other on contact.

2. Kzintis: Kzintis use many, many missiles on al their ships. To represent this, every 10 BPs spent by a Kzinti player (on anything) nets them 1 free torpedo frigate.
Penalties: Kzintis may never ally with any Lyran player, with the exception of the Lyran Democratic Republic (LDR). If there are multiple Kzinti players, they start with non-aggression pacts towards each other.

3. Hydrans: Almost all hydran ships are carrier hybrids. To represent this, every 10 BPs spent by a Hydran player on anything nets them 1 free fighter frigate.
Penalties: As the Kzinti, Hydrans may never ally with a Lyran clan, with the exception of the LDR. There should be only one hydran player.

4. Lyran Democratic Republic: Once a 'southern' clan of the empire, the people overthrew their count and established a free republic.
They have all the abilities of their Lyran counterparts.
Penalties: The nobles of the Lyran clans fear the ideology of the LDR will spread thruout the empire, while other races fear a united Lyran empire is most likely if those same ideals spread. Because of this, the LDR may not ally with ANY Lyran player. They may ally with the Hydrans and Kzintis. They may not ally with the Andromedans either. They start with a non-aggression pact with the ISC, who approves of their non-aggressive ways.

5. The Interstellar Concordium (ISC): A race that 'conquered' the known galaxy, in that they attempted to pacify all races after the Great War. The conquest was less than 100% successful and the same races had a tendency to fight back.

The ISC uses a special type of direct-fire torpedo that is not affected by the 'spread-out' tactic or Lyran ESGs. It does have an area effect, so it still will do extra damage vs. 'bunch together'.

Penalties: The ISC may not ally with the Andromedans. It starts with a non-aggression pact with the LDR.

In addition, the ISC is the only race that is allowed to claim "allied victory" with another race IF it is the most powerful player.

6. Andromedans: They came from another galaxy to conquer and enslave.
Andromedan players receive free "auto-repair". In addition, they are allowed to flee FTTD w/o penalty on defense, and can flee FTTD on offense with the standard penalties. If they flee on defense they may keep 1 SF if they have one, unless they only have that 1 base to start.

Penalties: Andromedans may not ally with the ISC or LDR.

Their frigates are not suited for long-distance travel alone. They must travel with a cruiser or larger. Therefore any assault fleet must have at least 1 cruiser or larger.
If they are forced to withdraw when attacking, and only have frigates left, those frigates are lost.

--------------------------


Okay! That's about it. Feel free to start booing now. Or god forbid, say what you do and don't like. I don't envision using all of this stuff, let alone as is.

Last edited by Theben on 12-01-2005 at 07:09

	12-01-2005 07:12									#2
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And in case you're wondering what a non-aggression pact means in terms of gameplay, it equals diddly/squat. Although I might change it to mean you can't attack that player on turn 1.

	12-01-2005 07:14									#3
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Boo.

Looks a lot more complicated.

	12-01-2005 07:45									#4
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Looks can be deceiving

I thought the original game looked complicated, turns out it's pretty simple.

	12-01-2005 07:46									#5
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With a large number of players it'd be a pain to GM.

Your examination of lasers is interesting though. Using the battle spreadsheet laser ships at close/spread can match or beat any tactic- providing the OoBs line up. When the attack and defend OoBs aren't LLT vs TTF but are LTL vs TTF, for example, the result is massive damage on both sides. Still, the lasers usually come out ahead, especially if they know what they're after.

There is a downside to too much lasering though... two equal laser fleets attacking each other that don't have matched OoBs will annihilate each other twice over.

	12-01-2005 09:46									#6
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How the heck you get the ISC involved with a Lyran civil war? You might as well throw in the Tholians as well.

	12-01-2005 09:48									#7
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What are the current rules of Galatic Overlord like? I did some rule modifications some time ago but stopped due to lack of interest. I will put them up there if I haven't thrown that piece of paper out.

	12-01-2005 10:00									#8
	Re: Alternate GO- discussion, signup Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Theben 3. Hydrans: Almost all hydran ships are carrier hybrids. To represent this, every 10 BPs spent by a Hydran player on anything nets them 1 free fighter frigate. Penalties: As the Kzinti, Hydrans may never ally with a Lyran clan, with the exception of the LDR. There should be only one hydran player.

Hydrans are interesting due to their dual use of fusion beams and hellbores. Hellbores are the greatest weapons to knock down ESGs, because hellbore damage is counted against the distance to the ESG, not the ship itself. OTOH, fusion beams can be represented to be a special type of laser that's particularly powerful at close range, but does jack at long range.

quote: Originally posted by Theben 4. Lyran Democratic Republic: Once a 'southern' clan of the empire, the people overthrew their count and established a free republic. They have all the abilities of their Lyran counterparts. Penalties: The nobles of the Lyran clans fear the ideology of the LDR will spread thruout the empire, while other races fear a united Lyran empire is most likely if those same ideals spread. Because of this, the LDR may not ally with ANY Lyran player. They may ally with the Hydrans and Kzintis. They may not ally with the Andromedans either. They start with a non-aggression pact with the ISC, who approves of their non-aggressive ways.

How do you handle their ships having a forest of gatling phasers?

BTW, what about the WYN star cluster?

	12-01-2005 10:10									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger How the heck you get the ISC involved with a Lyran civil war? You might as well throw in the Tholians as well.

It's supposed to be after the General War but before the Andromedan invasion, when their forces were spread across the galaxy.

As to your other questions, yeah, I know, but I didn't want to overdo it.

I might give the LDR +1 laser FF/10 BPs as well, but then 1) the Hydrans should get them too add 2) they'd need another penalty of some sort for balance.

	12-01-2005 23:03									#10
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I had some ideas for a "mobility mod" in combat to give an advantage from having smaller ships and techs that could be advanced...

-Jam

	13-01-2005 00:27									#11
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Don't agree with everything (for example laser fleets are not as powerful as stated) but I'll give it a shot for sure.

	13-01-2005 00:29									#12
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Care to elalorate? Nothing is set in stone.

	13-01-2005 00:32									#13
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And if you'd like to present your ideas, Jam, now's the time to do so.

	13-01-2005 01:12									#14
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I was thinking of making ships get much tougher as the sizes increased, while keeping weapon power the same i.e.

Frigate 1 weapon 2 HP
Cruiser 2 weapons 5 HP
Battleship 3 weapons 8 HP
Dreadnought 4 weapons 11 HP
Titan 5 weapons 14 HP

HP=(weapons x 3)-1

And then giving a bonus to the attack values of all weapons based on the ratio between the average speeds of the fleets i.e.

Frigate speed 5
Cruiser speed 4
B-Ship speed 3
Dread speed 2
Titan speed 1

So a fleet with avg. Speed 5 vs a fleet with avg. Speed 4 would have a 5:4 speed bonus in its favour, or a 20% increase in effectiveness. This will produce all kinds of crazy numbers.

-Jam

	13-01-2005 01:20									#15
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I think that makes frigates too powerful when added to larger ships. A titan and five frigates is better than two titans.

	13-01-2005 01:25									#16
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Whatever you decide to try, I'm an eager vic-, err, guinea pi-, well, beta tester?

	13-01-2005 02:33									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski I was thinking of making ships get much tougher as the sizes increased, while keeping weapon power the same i.e. Frigate 1 weapon 2 HP Cruiser 2 weapons 5 HP Battleship 3 weapons 8 HP Dreadnought 4 weapons 11 HP Titan 5 weapons 14 HP HP=(weapons x 3)-1 And then giving a bonus to the attack values of all weapons based on the ratio between the average speeds of the fleets i.e. Frigate speed 5 Cruiser speed 4 B-Ship speed 3 Dread speed 2 Titan speed 1 So a fleet with avg. Speed 5 vs a fleet with avg. Speed 4 would have a 5:4 speed bonus in its favour, or a 20% increase in effectiveness. This will produce all kinds of crazy numbers. -Jam

Hmm, with the weapons the same that would give an advantage to smaller ships. It might work, but HPs for hull sizes would have to increase expotentially.

EDIT: what's a 4:2 ratio? +40% or 100%?

2 cruisers would pound on one dreadnaught, and the DN would have only 1 more HP than the 2 cruisers.

I think a +/- 5% per difference in speed might be better.

	13-01-2005 04:58									#18
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Your logic regarding lasers is flawed. If lasers are so powerful why didn't you use them to assure your victory in the last game?

The fact is using lasers, closing in and spreading out your fleet will undoubtedly cause huge losses to both sides. Whose losses will be grater it's up to the OoB to decide.

	13-01-2005 05:33									#19
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Sounds interesting.
If you're going for 'realism' though you might want to model the ISC echelon tactics - for a fleet of n capital ships you require at least n ships of every rank below perhaps?

Oh and boo for toning down the Andro's!
Their DD's and PA's should give many more abilities - ability to change formation spontaneously to the most advantageous after seeing the oppositions, and their PA's should give 'em only 50% damage on the first combat round!

What do you mean 'balanced'?

	13-01-2005 05:34									#20
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Yeah, the big ships need to be tougher or the small ships to give less of a speed boost, but you see the general idea...

-Jam

	13-01-2005 06:18									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Ljube-ljcvetko Your logic regarding lasers is flawed. If lasers are so powerful why didn't you use them to assure your victory in the last game?

In many cases, I did. And had I used them properly in the final assault, I would have defeated the combined forces of sparrow and DrSpike. Yes, I would've taken damage.

quote: The fact is using lasers, closing in and spreading out your fleet will undoubtedly cause huge losses to both sides. Whose losses will be grater it's up to the OoB to decide.

By placing lasers up front, LL*, L*L, or *LL, one will wreak a good amount of damage on an enemy. After 1 round of combat the scales tend to tip towards the laser player.

It can still be beaten by a good OoB- it's not infallible. But a player can use it to insure that there are 2 segments they don't take damage, and may inflict severe losses on an enemy. But the only real defense against it is always backing off or allied assault.

	13-01-2005 06:21									#22
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quote: Originally posted by ravagon Sounds interesting. If you're going for 'realism' though you might want to model the ISC echelon tactics - for a fleet of n capital ships you require at least n ships of every rank below perhaps?

Who said I was going for realism? Just a few variations flavor. I did think about the whole echelon thing, but figured that'd be too much.

quote: Oh and boo for toning down the Andro's! Their DD's and PA's should give many more abilities - ability to change formation spontaneously to the most advantageous after seeing the oppositions, and their PA's should give 'em only 50% damage on the first combat round! What do you mean 'balanced'?

Yeah, right. Have you ever seen the SFB rule manual? I've seen smaller equipment manuals that were easier to follow...

	13-01-2005 06:52									#23
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More on the lasers debate, rethinking the implications of two laser fleets being able to blow each other up twice over, this also means that a laser fleet can be destroyed by another laser fleet half its size.

The conditions before the "Removed damaged ships after 3 rounds" rule were even more erratic, with a laser fleet being able to blow up another laser fleet 4 to 8 times its size almost all the time.

	13-01-2005 12:46									#24
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quote: Originally posted by ravagon Their DD's and PA's should give many more abilities - ability to change formation spontaneously to the most advantageous after seeing the oppositions, and their PA's should give 'em only 50% damage on the first combat round!

The Andros were toned down massively in the Doomsday Rulebook, with only baby T/R beams on all the sat ships and all that.

Besides, how do you portray PA's are "leaky" vs disruptorslasers?