12-01-2005 21:30									#1
	Treaties with Barbarians: Correction to hexedit compendium. Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

There is a minor correction that should be made to Mercator’s hexedit compendium.
In the Technologies & Money section, the following

byte 31 Reputation
byte 37-64 Treaties. 4 bytes for the treaties with all 7 civs (including their own civ).

should be changed to

byte 31 Reputation
byte 32-63 Treaties. 4 bytes for the treaties with all 8 civs (including Barbarians and their own civ).


Bytes 32-35 are for treaties between a civ and Barbarians. For example, if you want a civ to be allied to barbs (this is a bit unusual, but Arthedain wanted it for ZOC reasons), you need to enter 8c at the appropriate decimal offset.

Civ 1 3738
Civ 2 5166
Civ 3 6594
Civ 4 8022
Civ 5 9450
Civ 6 10878
Civ 7 12306


Note: The above is not all new. Andrew Livings has one civ allied with barbs in his Crisis of the New World Order scen. Obviously, he knew about bytes 32-35. I just couldn't duplicate his work before sorting out the role of bytes 32-35.

Edit #1: Changed 32-64 to 32-63. Thanks Mercator.
Edit #2: Corrected last 3 offsets.

Last edited by AGRICOLA on 18-01-2005 at 00:14

	12-01-2005 22:18									#2
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Thank you, though it would still be Allard's compendium. I've added it to my latest working copy.

Should I actually post that working copy, considering there's little chance I'll reformat the whole thing as I intended or work on my file format thread in the tips subforum any time soon?

I think it should actually be bytes 32-63, though. 32-64 is 33 bytes.

	12-01-2005 23:05									#3
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Thanks for the correction to 32-63 bytes. I assumed that the compendium was correct and never bothered to check the second number.

I am about to send you a copy of the compendium with both the barb treaty correction and a few words about how settlers/engineers accumulate charges in the UNITS section.

I agree that posting non-spoiler info is a good idea. IMO, reformating is not needed. The time for major discoveries regarding the structure of CIVII saved games seems to be over, thanks to the efforts of many. You would know how much new information is being generated. My impression is that only minor bits are being added, mainly things learned when scenarios require some offbeat tweaking.

Allard and you have done a great service in assembling and maintaining the Bible of Hexediting.

	13-01-2005 01:09									#4
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yes, Mercartor, I congratulate you for your work

However, I have not yet made my mind about the release of that spoiling info you know about. I think that it's better not to publish it.

	13-01-2005 03:38									#5
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Cool,

in the cities.gif, what is the 9th flag(the brown one) for?

	13-01-2005 04:40									#6
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What does the ninth flag have to do with hex editing?

If you have a question about hexediting or need some done, we'd be quite happy to help. But, please stop spamming threads with completely unrelated posts.

Last edited by AGRICOLA on 13-01-2005 at 04:53

	13-01-2005 05:23									#7
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quote: Originally posted by AGRICOLA I agree that posting non-spoiler info is a good idea. IMO, reformating is not needed.

OK then... Are you sure? Color "coding" and all? I'll just update the date and credits then. The next question is, where should I post it? I think I'll put it in a new "everything on Hex Editing " thread in the tips forum and close the other two.

quote: The time for major discoveries regarding the structure of CIVII saved games seems to be over, thanks to the efforts of many.

I don't think I agree with that entirely. But there never were too many people involved in this and certainly the most obvious things have been found out.

quote: Allard and you have done a great service in assembling and maintaining the Bible of Hexediting.

quote: Originally posted by yaroslav yes, Mercartor, I congratulate you for your work

I'm not nearly on the same level as Allard is on this. I have done far less in compiling the stuff, not to mention I never "released" any update of his compendium myself yet (well, apart from the file format thread)... But I'll take your compliments anyway!

quote: However, I have not yet made my mind about the release of that spoiling info you know about. I think that it's better not to publish it.

Sure... But I don't think I'll keep that under wraps forever! Because, in fact, isn't mentioning where the block is enough to "compromise" it?

	13-01-2005 06:29									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Broken_Erika Cool, in the cities.gif, what is the 9th flag(the brown one) for?

It's just a spare.

	13-01-2005 09:26									#9
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quote: quote: However, I have not yet made my mind about the release of that spoiling info you know about. I think that it's better not to publish it. Sure... But I don't think I'll keep that under wraps forever! Because, in fact, isn't mentioning where the block is enough to "compromise" it?

You guys scare me sometimes.

	13-01-2005 10:39									#10
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That's only fair. Your scenarios scare me most of the time.

	13-01-2005 17:12									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Harry Tuttle quote: However, I have not yet made my mind about the release of that spoiling info you know about. I think that it's better not to publish it. Sure... But I don't think I'll keep that under wraps forever! Because, in fact, isn't mentioning where the block is enough to "compromise" it? You guys scare me sometimes.

I couldn't sleep last night, either! Should designers or MP gamers tremble?

at Agricola

	13-01-2005 19:11									#12
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Our secret plan to take over the world by hex-editing is taking shape!

	14-01-2005 02:32									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Mercator quote: However, I have not yet made my mind about the release of that spoiling info you know about. I think that it's better not to publish it. Sure... But I don't think I'll keep that under wraps forever! Because, in fact, isn't mentioning where the block is enough to "compromise" it?

I don't think so. You know, the algorithm is not easy to discover. It took me a very long time to get it; I am very stupid, near retarded, so probably another guy will discover the algorithm a lot quicker, but it's not a trivial task, IMHO.

	14-01-2005 03:16									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Mercator Our secret plan to take over the world by hex-editing is taking shape!

	14-01-2005 03:35									#15
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quote: Originally posted by yaroslav I don't think so. You know, the algorithm is not easy to discover. It took me a very long time to get it; I am very stupid, near retarded, so probably another guy will discover the algorithm a lot quicker, but it's not a trivial task, IMHO.

God, where does that leave me? I thought algorithm was some kind of dance beat!

	14-01-2005 03:44									#16
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quote: Originally posted by AGRICOLA Note: The above is not all new.

No, I just checked my list and it's correct there, too.

I'm certain you'll find even more errors if you look hard enough. I thought most may have been ironed out in the .sav/.scn format thread – but that fizzled out quickly, didn't it?

Speaking of errors, I notice there's one in the Table of Contents:

quote: Transporters (ToT10: 4 + 14 * transporters, ToT11: 172 + 14 * transporters)

should read:

Leaders2 (ToT11: 168)
Transporters (ToT: 4 + 14 * transporters)

	14-01-2005 04:01									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Mercator Our secret plan to take over the world by hex-editing is taking shape!

	14-01-2005 05:05									#18
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quote: Originally posted by yaroslav I don't think so. You know, the algorithm is not easy to discover. It took me a very long time to get it; I am very stupid, near retarded, so probably another guy will discover the algorithm a lot quicker, but it's not a trivial task, IMHO.

But there's no need to crack any algorithm when you can just zero it out, is there?

quote: Originally posted by Catfish (...) but that fizzled out quickly, didn't it?

Yes, lack of time and dedication.

quote: Speaking of errors, I notice there's one in the Table of Contents: (...)

Thank you! I suppose I should add that then, shouldn't I? Maybe this weekend.

	14-01-2005 07:52									#19
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@yaroslav

Red = Posted by yaroslav
Black = AGRICOLA

I don't think so. You know, the algorithm is not easy to discover. It took me a very long time to get it;.
Absolutely, it is an amazing piece of detective work on the most complex part of a .sav file.

I am very stupid, near retarded, so probably another guy will discover the algorithm a lot quicker
[ ] That certainly is a unique "explanation" of how you acquired you reputation as a hex editor and why "found by yaroslav" appears throughout the compendium. Too bad no one believes a word of it. [ / ] ,

but it's not a trivial task, IMHO.
Please see my first remark.

Super work

	14-01-2005 11:07									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Mercator But there's no need to crack any algorithm when you can just zero it out, is there?

Very good point, I didn't think of it. But you know, a zeroes string is still considered a bad entry*. I didn't test it, but I don't know if civ will manage such an input finely.

* Except, probably for barbarians, but the whole barbarian thing is untested.

	14-01-2005 11:11									#21
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quote: Originally posted by AGRICOLA quote: I don't think so. You know, the algorithm is not easy to discover. It took me a very long time to get it; Absolutely, it is an amazing piece of detective work on the most complex part of a .sav file.

Thanks a lot for your kind works. However, I think the EVENT part is probably more difficult than this one.

quote: quote: I am very stupid, near retarded, so probably another guy will discover the algorithm a lot quicker [ ] That certainly is a unique "explanation" of how you acquired you reputation as a hex editor and why "found by yaroslav" appears throughout the compendium. Too bad no one believes a word of it. [ / ] ,

Thanks again, but I think that's more a matter of what I need to discover in order do civ2dip that anything other thing

quote: quote: but it's not a trivial task, IMHO. Please see my first remark. Super work

Thanks again

	14-01-2005 11:14									#22
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quote: Originally posted by techumseh God, where does that leave me? I thought algorithm was some kind of dance beat!

In this case with 'algorithm' I am refering to who civ2 stores information and who it does 'unstore' it. As the part we are speaking about includes a complex math device, I prefer to use algorithm instead of encoding scheme or something like that.

	14-01-2005 11:15									#23
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quote: Originally posted by yaroslav * Except, probably for barbarians, but the whole barbarian thing is untested.

That reminds myself that I need to do some barbarian tests....

	14-01-2005 11:23									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Mercator But there's no need to crack any algorithm when you can just zero it out, is there?

I got hold of an appropriate file and tried various variations on your theme. No go.

Maybe just as well.


Edit: Can't spell.

	14-01-2005 12:12									#25
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quote: Originally posted by yaroslav In this case with 'algorithm' I am refering to who civ2 stores information and who it does 'unstore' it. As the part we are speaking about includes a complex math device, I prefer to use algorithm instead of encoding scheme or something like that.

Oh. I get it. It's sort of a ska thing!

	14-01-2005 18:19									#26
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quote: Originally posted by yaroslav Very good point, I didn't think of it. But you know, a zeroes string is still considered a bad entry*. I didn't test it, but I don't know if civ will manage such an input finely.

Aha! But since those savegames use exactly the same format as a normal game, shouldn't there be some sort of header for it to tell civ2 it needs them in the first place?

	14-01-2005 21:31									#27
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no there is no need (maybe there is one, but I didn't locate it), because civ2 can go directly to the section, and check the lenght for all civs' special data: if they are all 0, well, then there is no need for them

	14-01-2005 21:33									#28
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quote: Originally posted by AGRICOLA I got hold of an appropriate file and tried various variations on your theme. No go. Maybe just as well. Edit: Can't spell.

In the document there is a description of the no-data or 0-length data You can use it in order to make civ2 not check that....

	14-01-2005 22:26									#29
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But isn't that enough?

Someone could zero it all out, play, save and then put the original data back. Or slightly less awful: copy the file, zero it out, peek and continue the original game.

In other words, someone who is sneaky and inventive enough to take a look and knows where the stuff is doesn't need any fancy algorithm.

	14-01-2005 22:46									#30
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zeroing will be not enough if you don't know what characters do you need to entry to represent a 0-lenght data. 00 will not be enough