13-01-2005 03:04									#31
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What worries me about this whole affair is not that the war happened, (I still don't know if it was a good idea or not for reasons other than the original ones propounded by the orchestrators, I was and remain ambivalent), but that political leaders of the world can be so brazen and not incur even significant political backlash from the opposition, or voters for so badly misleading them.

	13-01-2005 03:13									#32
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It wasn't the confirmed presence of WMDs, it was Saddam's clear intent to use what he claimed he had and what intelligence indicated he was attempting to get, and would get as soon as embargos and other punishments were lifted.

It isn't our fault that Saddam was all bluff. When people threaten that kind of stuff you take them seriously as far as intelligence can support. That's the risk Saddam took by bluffing, and I don't shed one tear over the decision.

	13-01-2005 03:20									#33
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Shouldn't the rule other boards are using, that quoting people in pieces to rip apart their argumants with inane accusations (the French did it!) be disallowed?

Regarding constructing WMD evidence. Some would implicate the Office of Special Plans, staffed by Jews, Pentagon.

Anyway Blair was perfectly aware that Saddam had no WMD capabilty.

And why did no one listen to Scott Ritter, the weapons inspector. Why did he not get any airtime on US media.
Of course his book in which he pointed to the manipulation was reviewed here, And it got bad a review (by a Jewish journalist), claiming that it was inaccurate and false . It appears it was not.

	13-01-2005 03:21									#34
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quote: No, something doesn't compute. And unless you think the whole American government is made of morons

Looks like you just answered your own question there, son.

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quote: It wasn't the confirmed presence of WMDs, it was Saddam's clear intent to use what he claimed he had and what intelligence indicated he was attempting to get, and would get as soon as embargos and other punishments were lifted. It isn't our fault that Saddam was all bluff. When people threaten that kind of stuff you take them seriously as far as intelligence can support. That's the risk Saddam took by bluffing, and I don't shed one tear over the decision.

You are kidding I hope.

	13-01-2005 03:59									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Richelieu: How is it tragic?

I was refering to the loss of life on both sides. That in itself is tragic, but if you add to it that there never was any real justification for that war it is not only tragic: it borders the obscene.

	13-01-2005 06:35									#36
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quote: Originally posted by alva quote: It wasn't the confirmed presence of WMDs, it was Saddam's clear intent to use what he claimed he had and what intelligence indicated he was attempting to get, and would get as soon as embargos and other punishments were lifted. It isn't our fault that Saddam was all bluff. When people threaten that kind of stuff you take them seriously as far as intelligence can support. That's the risk Saddam took by bluffing, and I don't shed one tear over the decision. You are kidding I hope.

Why do you think he's kidding?

There were 'experts' on Iraq and weapons who were convinced Saddam had or was working on ****. That Brit who committed suicide was one. If the 'experts' are saying that Saddam has them, or wants them, and base that on how Saddam is acting and on the fact that he has had them, how is some elected schmuk from Texas or Liverpool supposed to know better?

It's pretty clear that Bush and Blair used WMDs as the pretext for doing what they saw as needing to be done. The sanctions were going to end some way or another. A Saddam still in power after the sanctions and able to spit in the face of the West was not something they were willing to allow. It is their misfortune that the pretext turned out to be so apparently wrong, but they didn't just make it up over tea.

	13-01-2005 06:46									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin What worries me about this whole affair is not that the war happened, (I still don't know if it was a good idea or not for reasons other than the original ones propounded by the orchestrators, I was and remain ambivalent), but that political leaders of the world can be so brazen and not incur even significant political backlash from the opposition, or voters for so badly misleading them.

Thats what p1sses me off, they have total contempt (correctly as it turns out), for their elecorate.

Jeez, I wish I could bring myself to vote Conservative at the next election (except they'd be even further up Bush's arse given half the chance)

	13-01-2005 06:49									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc Regarding constructing WMD evidence. Some would implicate the Office of Special Plans, staffed by Jews, Pentagon.

Just curious about this part:

1) Some would say the OSP is staffed by Jews, or is that a statement of fact?

2) Are you among this "some"?

	13-01-2005 06:57									#39
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1) the latter

2) yes

(his posted answers may differ)

	13-01-2005 08:10									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor There was no way a person in the know would think Iraq poses an immediate threat to the US, and that the WMD program was kickin'.

Really? Post-war, I've heard quite a few intelligence people express embarassment that they didn't realize that Saddam hadn't any WMD. I have heard few or none say they they didn't think there was any, despite that this would seem a convenient thing to claim today.

In short, I have very little reason not believe that most of the Western intelligence community honestly thought Saddam had illicit weapons and/or programmes. Can you point me to anything to convince me otherwise? Or am I to conclude you do not think they were "in the know"?

	13-01-2005 08:55									#41
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We told you so.

*gloat*

	13-01-2005 09:01									#42
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Yeah but you know how all those super spies have to follow their spy instincts and cant take anything even remotely logical from civilians into account. Tihs is what you get when you rely on a bunch of delusional spies. The only thing they had was their credibility and assumed professionalism. Now its lost.

Last edited by laurentius on 13-01-2005 at 09:10

	13-01-2005 09:03									#43
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What really disturbs me is that this apparently isn't even considered major news by the American media.

You know, that vast left-wing media.

	13-01-2005 09:09									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Hindsight is 20/20.

That's not hindsight. Hans Blix and his boys went in Iraq a number of times and said they didn't find anything.

It's the chickenhawks who said Saddam was hiding them, because they somehow had access to better intelligence than the UN weapons inspectors.

	13-01-2005 09:25									#45
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Yeah right, UR. You forget to mention that every major intelligence agency had people saying he had to have them, and Saddam was telling Mr. Blix there were places he couldn't go. He bluffed. Is it that hard for you to see this, or are you hopeless for ever playing poker?

	13-01-2005 10:10									#46
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Yeah right, UR. You forget to mention that every major intelligence agency had people saying he had to have them, and Saddam was telling Mr. Blix there were places he couldn't go. He bluffed. Is it that hard for you to see this, or are you hopeless for ever playing poker?

I play poker. When somebody bluffs, I call and let the cards show who won. I don't kill his wife and kids, let him kill my kids, then reach across the table, b!tch-slap him, and look at the cards he's dropped.

	13-01-2005 10:15									#47
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Yeah right, UR. You forget to mention that every major intelligence agency had people saying he had to have them, and Saddam was telling Mr. Blix there were places he couldn't go. He bluffed. Is it that hard for you to see this, or are you hopeless for ever playing poker?

Every intelligence agency? Does that include German ones, Franch ones, Russian ones, etc., or do you just pick and choose the ones that supported your view?

You also forgot Saddam let Blix to search everywhere near the end, but of course Mr George W Bush was getting "impatient" in the end.

Impatient? What for? Can't wait to make some money?

	13-01-2005 10:50									#48
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Yeah right, UR. You forget to mention that every major intelligence agency had people saying he had to have them

Just because a bunch of people are saying it doesn't make it true.

Especially not when many of the people saying it have an agenda.

If you will recall there were loads of people who were able to see through the bullshit prior to the war. Just because you weren't one of them doesn't mean that it was impossible to do so. Nor does it mean that we shouldn't take those responsible for pushing a lot of that bullshit out there to task for their mendaciousness.

	13-01-2005 10:53									#49
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You got suckered, NYE, along with a lot of other people. Now you don't want to admit how easily they suckered you into believing some wild-ass theories without any real proof (like we ****ing told you they were) and so you want to believe that it was just some sort of tragic misunderstanding instead of what it was: using a lot of handwaving and scare tactics to punk the public.

	13-01-2005 10:56									#50
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Let's face it; some people just can't bring themselves to say it:

"The French were right."

	13-01-2005 10:58									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc Shouldn't the rule other boards are using, that quoting people in pieces to rip apart their argumants with inane accusations (the French did it!) be disallowed?

A certain mod would never allow that.

	13-01-2005 10:59									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor And unless you think the whole American government is made of morons, it is clear they knew it was a lie.

I don't think the two options are mutually exclusive.

Take RIAA. Their hubristic heads are stuck so far up their asses, they think that it's in the music industry's best interest to promote random talentless relatives instead of ground-breaking underground bands.

Wow. Genius.


Bushies, OTOH, are stupid enough to think that invading Iraq is in America's (or maybe just their) best interest.


It's one thing to respect another's worldview. It's a completely different to not respect them, if their actual actions are uberstupid in every known worldview.

	13-01-2005 11:03									#53
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The dilemma is that it is hard to be both evil and stupid. Or at least effectively so.

	13-01-2005 11:04									#54
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse You got suckered, NYE, along with a lot of other people. Now you don't want to admit how easily they suckered you into believing some wild-ass theories without any real proof (like we ****ing told you they were) and so you want to believe that it was just some sort of tragic misunderstanding instead of what it was: using a lot of handwaving and scare tactics to punk the public.

No. The experts, and everyone else got suckered. The only people who didn't get suckered were the ones who would stand out in the cold and deny any basis for any action taken, ever. This was their time to be right by the broken clock theory. Congratulations.

	13-01-2005 11:06									#55
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Yay! Why doesn't it feel good?

	13-01-2005 11:09									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Every intelligence agency? Does that include German ones, Franch ones, Russian ones, etc., or do you just pick and choose the ones that supported your view? You also forgot Saddam let Blix to search everywhere near the end, but of course Mr George W Bush was getting "impatient" in the end. Impatient? What for? Can't wait to make some money?

Can you show me ones that said Saddam had none? I didn't think so.

I think the money motive is a farily bad one to draw, given the complicity of the foes of the action in getting money, personally, from continuing the staus quo.

	13-01-2005 11:10									#57
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither No. The experts, and everyone else got suckered.

And, assuming you're right, what does it say that the most powerful nation on earth, with the most elaborate and expensive intelligence-gathering apparatus in human history, got "suckered" by a tinpot dictator who did little more that say, "I have WMD! Just kidding!"

That's who bested us. What do you make of that?

	13-01-2005 11:11									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly Let's face it; some people just can't bring themselves to say it: "The French were right."

Were they right, or were they bribed?

	13-01-2005 11:14									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly And, assuming you're right, what does it say that the most powerful nation on earth, with the most elaborate and expensive intelligence-gathering apparatus in human history, got "suckered" by a tinpot dictator who did little more that say, "I have WMD! Just kidding!" That's who bested us. What do you make of that?

I think it's pretty stupid to be guilty of having used chemical weapons, then pretend to have chemical weapons, then act as if you are hiding chemical weapons (or worse) when the US military is staring at you from the business end of the most sophisticated weapons systems the world has ever seen.

Christ, talk about hubris!

	13-01-2005 11:14									#60
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither No. The experts, and everyone else got suckered. The only people who didn't get suckered were the ones who would stand out in the cold and deny any basis for any action taken, ever. This was their time to be right by the broken clock theory. Congratulations.

Bullshit. I said that at most Saddam had a few tons of chemical weapons left over (the effectiveness of which would have been laughable) and I'm hardly a shrinking violet when it comes to military action.

There were two types of experts: those who could see the truth and those who were doing the suckering.

You refuse to admit that you went for it when they lied to you. Instead it's that Saddam threw up such a convincing front that anybody with any sense was convinced. Bullshit. The Big Lie worked this time, and is continuing to work...