13-01-2005 11:15									#61
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How many Communists in the State Department NYE?

	13-01-2005 11:17									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly "The French were right."

The French believed he had WMD.

	13-01-2005 11:18									#63
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Actually, Krazy, there were Iraqi officers saying that Saddam had the ****ing things, but of course Bush and Blair should have listened to you, yes? Get over yourself.

	13-01-2005 11:23									#64
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Iraqi officers? The ones on the tape talking about moving the "stuff"? Out of thousands of hours of tapes logged that's the best they could do?

Bush and Blair didn't need to listen to anybody. They were the ones telling them what to say.

No matter how many times you repeat it NYE, the "case" presented as proof of the danger posed by Saddam's WMD program does not rise to the level of credible. It never did. If you want a laugh go back and watch Powell's presentation to the UN on the subject. It's obvious that he doesn't believe a word he's saying the entire time. He knew it was bullshit back then.

	13-01-2005 11:26									#65
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And I'm not all that impressed with myself for having "figured out" that all that stuff smelled funny. I'm simply impressed that so many people didn't.

	13-01-2005 11:26									#66
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Kelly

quote: Kelly was born in the Rhondda in Wales. He graduated from Leeds University with a BSc, followed by an MSc at Birmingham University. In 1971 he received a doctorate in microbiology from Oxford University. In 1984 he joined the civil service, working at what is now DSTL Porton Down, as Head of the Defence Microbiology Division. He moved from there to work as an ad hoc advisor to the MoD and the Foreign Office. His experience with biological weapons at Porton Down led to his selection as United Nations weapons inspector in Iraq following the end of the Gulf War. Kelly's work as a member of the UNSCOM team led him to visit Iraq 37 times, and his success in uncovering Iraq's biological weapons program caused Rolf Ekeus nominating him for the Nobel Peace Prize. He was made a Commander of the Order of St Michael and St George in 1996. Although never a member of the intelligence services, the Secret Intelligence Service (MI6) regularly sought out his opinion on Iraq and other issues. David Kelly had become a member of the Bahá'í Faith in about 1999. Baha'i teachings condemn suicide and discourage a close involvement with party politics. His wife and children remained members of the Church of England. Kelly's specialism led to confusion about his actual job as he was frequently seconded to other departments. He was a frequent source for the media if they wished to check details, although he rarely appeared in front of the camera. In 2002 he was working for the Defence Intelligence Staff at the time of the compilation of a dossier by the Joint Intelligence Committee on the weapons of mass destruction possessed by Iraq. The government had commissioned the dossier as part of the preparation of what later became the 2003 invasion of Iraq. Although not responsible for writing any of the dossier, Kelly's history with inspections led to him being asked to proofread sections of the draft dossier on the history of inspections. In common with the rest of his section, Kelly was unhappy with some of the claims in the draft dossier, particularly a piece of information which had arisen in August 2002 that Iraq was capable of firing battlefield biological and chemical weapons within 45 minutes of an order to use them. The section queried the inclusion of the claim but their superiors were satisfied when they took it up through the Joint Intelligence Committee with the Secret Intelligence Service (MI6). Kelly believed Iraq had retained biological weapons after the end of inspections. He was privately supportive of moves to invade Iraq and remove the government of Saddam Hussein, and made the case to friends and family when they discussed it with him. After the end of the war, he was invited to join the inspection team trying to find any traces of weapons of mass destruction programmes. Kelly made one trip to Iraq from June 5-11 2003 but owing to a confusion over his visa, he was delayed for several days in Kuwait. He was enthusiastic about resuming work in Iraq.

You're a better expert than he was, yes KH?

	13-01-2005 11:26									#67
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc The French believed he had WMD.

The French believed that the UN inspections -- the ones that failed to turn up any WMD -- were producing valid results and that, if allowed to continue, would eventually give us an accurate picture of the WMD situation in Iraq.

Now it turns out that failure to find WMD was, indeed a valid -- the only valid -- result.

	13-01-2005 11:31									#68
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Would it really matter if Bush had been right and Iraq had been lousy with WMD? The case presented for thier threat was the weak point not thier existance. Given the huge unacounted for stockpiles and the games played with inspectors, it was logical to assume he had them.

	13-01-2005 11:35									#69
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Iraqi officers? The ones on the tape talking about moving the "stuff"? Out of thousands of hours of tapes logged that's the best they could do? Bush and Blair didn't need to listen to anybody. They were the ones telling them what to say. No matter how many times you repeat it NYE, the "case" presented as proof of the danger posed by Saddam's WMD program does not rise to the level of credible. It never did. If you want a laugh go back and watch Powell's presentation to the UN on the subject. It's obvious that he doesn't believe a word he's saying the entire time. He knew it was bullshit back then.

Bush and Blair made it up? Have they also orchestrated the alien coverup?

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/...1456155,00.html

quote: Saddam planned to deploy WMD 07/12/2003 09:57 - (SA) London - Saddam Hussein deployed weapons of mass destruction in the run-up to the US-led war on Iraq which could be used on the battlefield in less than 45 minutes, an Iraqi officer told a British Sunday newspaper. The informant, identified as Lieutenant Colonel al-Dabbagh, said he believed he was the source of a controversial claim in a British government dossier on Iraq which claimed some of Saddam's weapons of mass destruction (WMD) could be deployed within 45 minutes. Dabbagh, who was the head of an Iraqi air defence unit in the western desert, told The Sunday Telegraph that he had provided several reports to British intelligence on Saddam's weapons plans from early 2002. He said that these included details of how frontline units had been supplied with cases of WMD warheads towards the end of last year. The devices were made in Iraq and designed to be launched by hand-held rocket-propelled grenades, the Sunday Telegraph said. "I am the one responsible for providing this information," Dabbagh was quoted as saying. "Forget 45 minutes, we could have fired these within half an hour." He did not specify whether the warheads contained chemical or biological agents. He said that he believed the weapons had now been hidden at secret locations by Saddam's Fedayeen militias and were still in Iraq. The Sunday Telegraph said that Dabbagh had spied for the Iraqi National Accord, a London-based exile group, for several years before the war and was now working as an adviser for the Iraqi Governing Council. Downing Street refused to comment on the report. A BBC radio report in May alleged that a British government dossier on Iraq - produced in September 2002 and containing the notable claim that Iraq could deploy chemical or biological weapons in as little as 45 minutes - had been "sexed up". The subsequent suicide of David Kelly, the British weapons expert who was the source of the BBC report, and a judicial inquiry into his death plunged British Prime Minister Tony Blair into the biggest crisis of his six years in office.

	13-01-2005 11:39									#70
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither You're a better expert than he was, yes KH?

No, I'm not. And I still think it's possible that Saddam retained a few pounds of anthrax here and there, a couple of tons of mustard gas etc. Hell, they might never find that little. But the danger posed by such a minuscule violation of the prohibitions placed on Saddam is laughable compared to the attention being given to it. I never said that Saddam complied with all of the restrictions placed on him. He's not what I regard as an honest man. But the real problem is that you believed it when they said that Saddam posed an imminent threat due to his WMD. He didn't have enough to pose such a threat. The inspections were effective at getting rid of most of his stocks and in preventing him from rebuilding them.

In fact, the only thing it says there which I disagree with is his support of the invasion. As to that, all I can say is that he either drastically underestimated the probable difficulty of the war (yet another area where the "experts" BSed the public) or he wanted Saddam gone for reasons other than WMD (which I probably shared)

Do you really think that this is a yes/no issue? If he's got 1 kg of mustard gas we need to start a war over it? I never said he had nothing. I just said he didn't pose any sort of serious threat. Certainly not enough of one to preemptively attack. This was obvious back then and is even clearer today.

	13-01-2005 11:41									#71
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Would it really matter if Bush had been right and Iraq had been lousy with WMD? The case presented for thier threat was the weak point not thier existance. Given the huge unacounted for stockpiles and the games played with inspectors, it was logical to assume he had them.

It's a question of prudence. The question is, was it prudent to press ahead in the way that we did?

	13-01-2005 11:44									#72
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So now Saddam had WMD, but it was still a bad reason, is that it?

TBH, I subscribe to the line of thought that says good riddance to Saddam, on any pretext. I also believed then, as I do now, that there were other reasons to invade Iraq.

	13-01-2005 11:46									#73
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Given that I don't really agree with the decision to invade, I'd say no. Once I had reestablished the international will to maintain the sanctions regime that had been weakening under French pressure, I'd have been satisfied.

	13-01-2005 11:47									#74
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Some BS provided by some small fish getting payments from somewhere (or who just likes attention) [/q]

Talk about conspiracy theories. Not only does this guy claim to have gotten shells for weapons which cannot be found, he now claims that a shadow group in Iraq has managed to retain control of sizable stocks of delicate chem or bio weapons without a trace of them being found despite the presence of 150 000 American troops in-country

You know, NYE, I watched a program on MD public-access television where some jackass was hyping their theory that sept. 11 was orchestrated by the CIA, that the Pentagon was hit by an unmanned Predator plane carrying explosives while i was being chased by an SAM fired by the Pentagon's secret air-defense units.

I've also got a bridge in Brooklyn you might be interested in...

	13-01-2005 11:49									#75
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No, he says that he was the guy who told the Brits about it, whether he was right or wrong. Did Blair invent him? Try to keep up.

	13-01-2005 11:52									#76
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither So now Saddam had WMD, but it was still a bad reason, is that it?

"Now"?

I've always said this: that he likely had some very small amounts left over, that the effectiveness of these remains was laughable, and that he thus posed little or no threat.

I haven't changed my stance once on this issue, NYE. Try and drudge up stuff from 2002 on these same boards and you'll see me saying the same thing.

	13-01-2005 11:55									#77
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither No, he says that he was the guy who told the Brits about it, whether he was right or wrong. Did Blair invent him? Try to keep up.

Did the guy on MD public access TV make up the security camera footage released by the Pentagon which read Sept. 12 2001 (instead of Sept. 11)?

Either Blair is as stupid as that dude or he knowingly repeated something he knew to be untrue because it suited him.

	13-01-2005 11:56									#78
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Can you show me ones that said Saddam had none? I didn't think so.

The French was quite set against an invasion, and so was Russia. Thus, it can be logically concluded that their intelligence agencies didn't think much about Saddam's alleged BCN weapons and programmes.

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I think the money motive is a farily bad one to draw, given the complicity of the foes of the action in getting money, personally, from continuing the staus quo.

Ah, I see, W was upset that the French was getting money from Iraq and he wasn't.

	13-01-2005 11:59									#79
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I think it's pretty stupid to be guilty of having used chemical weapons, then pretend to have chemical weapons, then act as if you are hiding chemical weapons (or worse) when the US military is staring at you from the business end of the most sophisticated weapons systems the world has ever seen.

Again, as I said, Saddam eventually let the UN weapons inspectors went where they wanted to go. So I don't see where you got that from.

	13-01-2005 12:00									#80
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Did the guy on MD public access TV make up the security camera footage released by the Pentagon which read Sept. 12 2001 (instead of Sept. 11)? Either Blair is as stupid as that dude or he knowingly repeated something he knew to be untrue because it suited him.

Except Blair isn't alone. He gets advice from people who should know what they are talking about, who in turn get advice from people who should be experts, like David Kelly.

	13-01-2005 12:01									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger The French was quite set against an invasion, and so was Russia. Thus, it can be logically concluded that their intelligence agencies didn't think much about Saddam's alleged BCN weapons and programmes.

Logical to conclude? Come back when you have facts and not conjecture, please.

	13-01-2005 12:01									#82
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Actually, Krazy, there were Iraqi officers saying that Saddam had the ****ing things, but of course Bush and Blair should have listened to you, yes?

You meant the defectors? You believe the defectors on this issue?

Defectors are a problematic source because they tend to say what the other side (i.e. the side they defected to) want to hear.

	13-01-2005 12:02									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger You meant the defectors? You believe the defectors on this issue? Defectors are a problematic source because they tend to say what the other side (i.e. the side they defected to) want to hear.

No, I mean a serving Iraqi officer. Read the piece, if you can.

	13-01-2005 12:02									#84
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Logical to conclude? Come back when you have facts and not conjecture, please.

This is so funny NYE.

Where's the evidence that Iraq had BCN weapons?

	13-01-2005 12:02									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger The French was quite set against an invasion, and so was Russia. Thus, it can be logically concluded that their intelligence agencies didn't think much about Saddam's alleged BCN weapons and programmes.

Interesting. Can we also infer from China and Russia's reluctance for the UNSC to take substantive action wrt Sudan that believe genocide is taking place? Nevermind China is the largest investor in Sudan's oil industry and Russia sells weapons and military equipment to Khartoum.

	13-01-2005 12:04									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger This is so funny NYE. Where's the evidence that Iraq had BCN weapons?

Very slick. The point is what the 'experts' were telling Bush and Blair then, isn't it?

Of course they were wrong, now. What did everyone think two years ago? Not the same as today, yes?

	13-01-2005 12:04									#87
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither No, I mean a serving Iraqi officer. Read the piece, if you can.

An ex-Iraqi officer.

	13-01-2005 12:05									#88
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Serving at the time, thank you very much.

	13-01-2005 12:06									#89
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Incidently, they are all ex officers now. That's what happens when the army gets disbanded. Duh!

	13-01-2005 12:06									#90
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither What did everyone think two years ago? Not the same as today, yes?

I don't know abot you, NYE, my position hasn't changed from those pre-invasion days. I didn't believe that Saddam had any BCN weapons or the ability to develop them.