14-01-2005 11:05									#1
	bad news Got spare money?

i was just looking over the civ 4 stuff and i found this

quote: Soren points out that genres/franchises that get increasingly complex tend to die out as they become accessible only for the real hard-core fans, no longer for casual gamers (example: flight simulator games). Soren thinks that RTS games are heading in this direction. To prevent Civilization from making the same mistake, Civ4 will not be condiserably more complex or bigger than Civ3, only different. Also, it will aim at a slightly different fan-base than previous Civ-games, though it should still appeal to (most) veterans as well.

thats bad news for us

	14-01-2005 11:07									#2
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quote: though it should still appeal to (most) veterans as well.

not to me
-----
I refuse to be simple, mindless, popmeat for easy manipulation votecast in our so called wonderful democracy

	14-01-2005 16:12									#3
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: though it should still appeal to (most) veterans as well.

Hmmm........ then I will probably take the same approach as I took back in December of 2001 where I relied on the reaction from the online community before I made a decision whether to purchase Civ 3 or not, as I might not belong in the group labeled "most veterans".....


D

	14-01-2005 20:04									#4
	Tired of ads?

Well guys, they are not always the most stable of things, but you always could start a open source project for SMAC2.

Vel, I understand you are developing your own game. If you wander by and see this, maybe you could shed some light on the process.

	14-01-2005 20:12									#5
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I had found this already and put several posts telling him he was an idiot feel free to do the same. Civ III was a mistake and it looks like Civ IV will be also.

	14-01-2005 22:23									#6
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I found the silver lining

quote: Firaxis seems to be going through considerable lengths to make the game *extremely* moddable: all in-game data will be stored in XML, nothing will be hardcoded! Also, the engine has Python (a very powerful scripting language) integrated in it, opening up things like map generation, combat, triggers/events, etc to fans.

With all the data in XML and scripting access, you can make a very close approximation to SMAC

Although I can't say I am real happy with Civ4s design outlook, this level of moddablity would put the owness on the SMAC community. If we want it bad enough, we'll have to do it ourselves.

	14-01-2005 23:13									#7
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this sucks. are we part of a dying breed?

although I admit I like civ3, and still play it occasionally (I never play civ2 anymore)

but I'd hate for them to take another step backwards. that would leave us with... well nothing.

	14-01-2005 23:36									#8
	Increase the size of your Attachments

as for complexity, sometimes I feel like smac X has too many options. Yeah it's great for those players that like to use a wide variety of options.

but I'm guessing there's several base facilities no one uses. what are your thoughts? maybe I'll make a thread on that.

	15-01-2005 00:52									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Dissident this sucks. are we part of a dying breed?

No, actually the hardcore gamer demographic is more populous than ever. The problem is the started with the Sims a few years back. The Sims shattered sales records. People who normally never gamed (like my mother ) were playing the Sims. All those non-gamers represented an untapped profit potential. Volume really is the key to profits in business. The high-rollers might get the fancy treatment, but the real money is made down in the quarter slots. In other words, no matter how loyal the hard core fans are to a game, they don't generate the big cash.

WELCOME TO THE WORLD OF PUNK ROCK.....where the fan's devotion to quality, originality, and integrity push them out of the realm of pop marketability.

You might want to go pick up an early Ramones, X, or Sex Pistols album to complete society's rejection of you.

	15-01-2005 01:11									#10
	Remove this text

Bah the pride of the PC market, the strategy game, ruined by people with a short attention span

	15-01-2005 02:38									#11
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quote: With all the data in XML and scripting access, you can make a very close approximation to SMAC

maby. but will we be able to mod in in core features like SE and the disgn workshop, both of witch don't look very likly to apear

	15-01-2005 22:50									#12
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I love the design workshop, but far too often there's only a few models I use anyways. I could edit those in myself.

another idea for a thread . How many different variations of units do you actually use?

Though I admit the design workshop saved my ass last night. Well not really- I didn't need to conquer the drones, but they pissed me off- so I wanted to. Their mind worms (and other native life) were tearing up my technologically superior units. I had to create empath drop units, and make my ships empath and trance. and my needlejets had empath ability as well.

But even with my empath units, I probably used less than 30 different unit designs the whole game.

	16-01-2005 03:47									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Lazerus Bah the pride of the PC market, the strategy game, ruined by people with a short attention span

It's sad.

	16-01-2005 03:48									#14
	Inflate your Upload Space

paramir, where did you find that info?

	16-01-2005 06:18									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by livid imp WELCOME TO THE WORLD OF PUNK ROCK.....where the fan's devotion to quality, originality, and integrity push them out of the realm of pop marketability.

Yes, man. Im glad im on these side of market since my first game. Old tendency has become strong rule now. But there is no rules without exceptions.
Even in 1999, AC already was an exception.

	16-01-2005 10:55									#16
	Remove this text

I'd be nervous but not *too* worried, isnt sid still involved?

A simplified gameplay can still *possibly* be not only better, but deeper if developed right

for example, if you notice a lotf of the game play improvements in turbosmac.txt actually REMOVE certain abilities and options, and yet manage to make the game more balanced

Its possible that we might be underestimating... but maybe not

	18-01-2005 01:51									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Xian I'd be nervous but not *too* worried, isnt sid still involved?

Of course he is involved. His name is on the game, he must be involved in the design. If they were just using his name as marketing tool when he hasn't really been involved in years, that would be unethical.

quote: Originally posted by Xian Its possible that we might be underestimating... but maybe not

Like we underestimated Civ3?

	18-01-2005 03:39									#18
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Well, I guess we could all start playing the first civ, and then 15 years later when civ 5 came out, it'd feel like it was better...

Personally, I like civ 3 the way it is, at least for the most part...but a few upgrades for present day technology, like graphics, would be good enough...

	18-01-2005 05:36									#19
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quote: paramir, where did you find that info?

it's in one of the stickies in the civ4 forum

	18-01-2005 06:07									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Commy Well, I guess we could all start playing the first civ, and then 15 years later when civ 5 came out, it'd feel like it was better... Personally, I like civ 3 the way it is, at least for the most part...but a few upgrades for present day technology, like graphics, would be good enough...

I like civ3 for the most part.

As I said in the other games.

If the game is as moddable as they say. They can have their cake and eat it too.

They can make the game simple enough for the general public so the game sells well. But make it so the game can be made, much more complex through mods and scripting to satisfy the hardcore gamers.

But I would think there's a limit to how much you can alter the game. The engine may not be able to handle it.

	18-01-2005 22:05									#21
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Dissident But I would think there's a limit to how much you can alter the game. The engine may not be able to handle it.

That used to be the case when everything was compiled......and all your data was in complied libraries.

Now good programming includes modular data and powerful scripting add-ons. But doing the job well takes time. Time equals money. And the game industry is more business like than ever before. The quality of the game down to if the devs are given enough time or money.

I worked for Warner Bros about 10 years ago. I heard there is a saying in the film industry that goes something like this:

"You can have a film made fast, cheap, or well. Pick any two."

This can be applied to any industry including the game industry.

	19-01-2005 01:23									#22
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And what we want is Cheap/Well, of course.

	20-01-2005 19:19									#23
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

And of course the game industry wants cheap/fast.

	21-01-2005 04:55									#24
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by livid imp That used to be the case when everything was compiled......and all your data was in complied libraries. Now good programming includes modular data and powerful scripting add-ons. But doing the job well takes time. Time equals money. And the game industry is more business like than ever before. The quality of the game down to if the devs are given enough time or money. I worked for Warner Bros about 10 years ago. I heard there is a saying in the film industry that goes something like this: "You can have a film made fast, cheap, or well. Pick any two." This can be applied to any industry including the game industry.

System shock 2 refutes this entire idea

Developed in 1 year, one of the best games of all time

	23-01-2005 12:15									#25
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quote: Originally posted by livid imp No, actually the hardcore gamer demographic is more populous than ever. The problem is the started with the Sims a few years back. The Sims shattered sales records. People who normally never gamed (like my mother ) were playing the Sims. All those non-gamers represented an untapped profit potential. Volume really is the key to profits in business. The high-rollers might get the fancy treatment, but the real money is made down in the quarter slots. In other words, no matter how loyal the hard core fans are to a game, they don't generate the big cash. WELCOME TO THE WORLD OF PUNK ROCK.....where the fan's devotion to quality, originality, and integrity push them out of the realm of pop marketability. You might want to go pick up an early Ramones, X, or Sex Pistols album to complete society's rejection of you.

You are so right.

	23-01-2005 18:54									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Xian System shock 2 refutes this entire idea Developed in 1 year, one of the best games of all time

System shock2. Recommended to all who people who don't even like RPGs and FPSs that much. Theres a russian site with it for download as abandonware if you google.

www.ttlg.com has a SS2 forum with help on how to get it running on XP.

	25-01-2005 19:06									#27
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Xian System shock 2 refutes this entire idea Developed in 1 year, one of the best games of all time

Not entirely, it could of been expensive to produce. Unless you have evidence to the contrary?