14-01-2005 23:38									#1
	What base facilities to you never or rarely build? Enter the AD-FREE zone

I'm finding sometimes there are too many options in SMAC expansion. You never really have time to build everything. There are some base facilities I never build. And some game designs I find to be useless. Although it is great to have more options, because I'm sure there are some of you out there, that probably use these. So that's why I made this thread.

Psi gates is a big one for me. What good are they? There are more as well, but I'll need to load up my last save game. I never build these facilities so I don't remember their names.

	15-01-2005 00:05									#2
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I hardly build psi gates as well since my games hardly ever get to the point where they are available but I don't build all the facilities in all the bases either--For example

Science productivity bases-- hardly ever get things like command centres, punishment spheres, bioenhancement -- It will build all the science and energy enhancements and then pump out crawlers/trawlers from then on.

Military bases -- may get ONLY a p sphere and the morale enhancers-- The idea is a base with 0 energy production but high minerals

Crawler factories-- these may get a psphere but often you can just use specialists if they happen to grow-- The sole purpose of this type of base is to feed crawlers to the science or military bases so it builds no other facilities.

The thing I probably build least in the early game is a perimeter defense. I figure if I can't kill the enemy units before they attack my bases, I'm already in trouble. So they are just a sometimes thing if I need some added defense at a chokepoint until I can get units there.

	15-01-2005 00:09									#3
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OH and some of the psi facilities to pacify planet are not needed. The ecodamage formula shows how repeatedly building and scrapping the cheapest one of these types of facilities is the way to go.

	15-01-2005 00:42									#4
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that's an exploit.

after building voice of planet, both the presurve and temple weren't enough to get my eco damage down. including the tree farm etc.

but at the point I never care about eco damage.

and I never run specialized bases like you do. Many of my "core" bases end up building the same things.

and by that reasoning, Punishment spheres are a big no-no for me. I have never ever built one in the entire time I've played SMAC.

	15-01-2005 00:42									#5
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I never build Punishment Spheres. Of course, I'm not a particularly good or efficient player who plays for the fun instead of the win and Punishment Spheres just don't sit well with me.

That's also why I don't build a lot of Genejack Factories.

	15-01-2005 00:43									#6
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I have built genejack factories before, but those drones really start to pile up. So I never build them anymore.

	15-01-2005 00:54									#7
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Covert Ops Center -- Never built, since Probes are usually Elite by this point anyway.

Paradise Garden -- Gives a base two extra talents. Again, of no use by the time it's available.

Psi Gate -- I'll build these on super-huge maps late in the game when I'm mopping up. Rush build one in a captured enemy base. Then transport choppers through the gate (only one per turn, though) to wipe out the AI. Not the only way to accomplish this, but adds variety.

	15-01-2005 01:16									#8
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I am shocked nobody has mentioned the single most god-awful p.o.s. facility......

The Skunkworks!

Build a crawler instead. Have it harvesting resources until the point you need to use it. Much more efficient.

Last edited by livid imp on 15-01-2005 at 01:26

	15-01-2005 01:33									#9
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I have built skunkworks when I first started playing, but never anymore.

	15-01-2005 02:04									#10
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It could posibly be worth building if it had a 0 maintaince cost.

	15-01-2005 05:27									#11
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Never builds: Skunk Works; Brood Pits; Punishment Spheres

I'm suprised to find someone who says they never build Genejacks. What a great facility!

	15-01-2005 06:31									#12
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I don't like Genejacks but I build them, pending arrival of Robotic Assembly plant.

	15-01-2005 06:36									#13
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Re Skunkworks, I would build one or two in the context of a large number of bases.

As Morgan I have built a punishment sphere. Not sure if it was worth it because of the chore of re homing the air unit and then having to crawl the min support. But it did work.

	15-01-2005 13:24									#14
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Don't diss the Skunkworks. Its never a Tree Farm, but it has its uses. I sometimes find it useful to build one. Not only does it aid prototyping (especially for planet busters) but it removes the retooling penalty. In my best minerals base I'm happy to build one skunkworks for that flexibility. If an emergency comes up I know that when I change production the new production will still be in the range where it hurries cheaply.

	15-01-2005 16:36									#15
	Increase Your PM Length

I suspect Skunkworks might be usable for a few interesting exploits - but theres already enough of those.

The Evil Facilities are GREAT.
Punishment Sphere. No. Drones. Ever. Vital for large scale conquest under FM or other play styles that don't make extensive use of police and/or the LLV & planned. Heres the reasons to rush them in conquered bases:
1) It's cheap, probably cheaper than rec + holo and a single rush buy! (exeption being Zak with VW). Ofcourse you can still leave some bases "unpunished" if enough drone control from the old regime survives.
2) All workers can go to work bringing in minerals, making the base immediately useful for - building cheap shell units, rush buys, supporting units (until the base produces exactly 10 minerals), you can rush a genejack to further enhance this aspect. A base being starved by specialists is not nearly as productive.
3) It can grow like crazy. Theres no need to starve the base initially and if you have nut orbitals it can grow really fast. This means council votes!!! (Using captured, opressed bases for votes really is pure evil if you think about it, perfect for those hypocritical Peacekeepers).
4) It wont bother you with drone issues ever again. Less Micro is a Good Thing.
5) They help protect against mind control by raising the cost, you don't want your armies getting yoinked in a package deal with some crummy captured base.
6) They are evil in an Evil Mastermind kind of way. And you can hunch over you're keyboard and cackle "Punishment! Punishment for everybody! Mwahahah!" (strictly optional)

Genejack: Unless you're actually relying on GA's then you really won't notice the extra drone. If you're expanding like you "should" then you definitely wont notice it. The build cost and upkeep is so low that the genejack is nearly a must build in every base. Even in a base with a piddly 10 minerals it gives 5 extra minerals, that could be used to support 5 non-clean units and thus bring the base back down to the magic 10. It brings bases working only a borehole up to the magic 10 (actually 11 or 12 IIRC - support a unit or 2 for "free").


Borderline Useful:
Bio lab: The benefits are marginal but it will turn a profit in maybe 30 turns. The labs produced are specialist labs - immune to effic and multiplied by netnodes etc. Low priority but wont be a liability.
Brood Pits: Hmmm yet another way to control drones? Still not bad if you have the AV and want to ditch PS while still keeping the maxed out police effect. Or to negate FM drones. The native effects are quite significant, especially the cost reduction. The combat morale effect is bugged and doesn't work AFAIK.
Paradise Gardens: Just too late in the game. They might be useful if you still want GA's for some reason, or just as a bit of extra drone control in bases with little energy for pysch - if you have more credits than sense (like, are running FM) then it can't hurt to get some.
Any other late game facility is also rather pointless to build if you are wrapping up the game. Quantum labs everywhere will help you transcend faster, but will usually slow down conquest compared to building a couple of units instead. Psi gate may give a little benefit to conquest... but are mostly used for dumb tricks like teleporting ships into land bases.

	15-01-2005 22:57									#16
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quote: Originally posted by CEO Aaron Never builds: Skunk Works; Brood Pits; Punishment Spheres I'm suprised to find someone who says they never build Genejacks. What a great facility!

bah! I usually crawl for minerals until robotic assembly plants.

	15-01-2005 23:00									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Senethro Don't diss the Skunkworks. Its never a Tree Farm, but it has its uses. I sometimes find it useful to build one. Not only does it aid prototyping (especially for planet busters) but it removes the retooling penalty. In my best minerals base I'm happy to build one skunkworks for that flexibility. If an emergency comes up I know that when I change production the new production will still be in the range where it hurries cheaply.

I actually built it in last nights game, but I never used it.

I find that base is always busy building something else. I was rolling in energy anyways. I just have another base do it, and rush it. Yeah, I know it's not the most economical use of my money.

speaking of:

my last night's game I was building those flachette systems (I had a planetbuster scare- it was all I had). It's supposed to work against conventional missiles too, right? I was still getting hammerred by conventional missiles. I know it's only 50%, but I can't tell if they are actually working.

	16-01-2005 00:42									#18
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It depends : fully developed spread out bases pretty much get everything(except punishment spheres of course) and ICS bases get only immediately useful things(no drone control or special stuff).

skunk works sucks, use crawlers on prototype(instant 6-10 planetbusters as soon as you get orbital flight for instance).

	16-01-2005 02:07									#19
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quote: Originally posted by livid imp I am shocked nobody has mentioned the single most god-awful p.o.s. facility...... The Skunkworks! Build a crawler instead. Have it harvesting resources until the point you need to use it. Much more efficient.

Sounds good to me!

Also, not exactly the same, but similar, why useless terrain enhancements: airbases. Never built 'em. How about you?


D

	16-01-2005 02:15									#20
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That was one of my first SMAC posts. Whether or not airbases were a liablity.

If your enemy has airpower, they could use them to get to you just as easily as you could get to them. You'd be better off just building a base. They'd at least need a ground unit to use the base vs just landing in it.

Last edited by livid imp on 16-01-2005 at 04:43

	16-01-2005 03:20									#21
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Airbases are garbage only because bases are so nice, with so few downsides. Bureaucracy doesn't have teeth and planes have plenty of range. I suppose a treaty-mate not willing to pact (perhaps a lack of trust, perhaps a desire to keep collaboration secret for a sneak attack) may still allow you to pass through his territory with airbases.

	16-01-2005 03:29									#22
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If you keep your airforce and missiles in a base then the enemy can see them via infiltration, not so for air units in an airbase.

If you feel like getting a bit carried away you can build a bunch of airbases and hide planetbusters at only some of them. The enemy would know you have planetbusters but they wouldn't show up on any base screens, so they couldn't (as easily) first-strike you.

	16-01-2005 10:59									#23
	Re: What base facilities to you never or rarely build? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Dissident I'm finding sometimes there are too many options in SMAC expansion. You never really have time to build everything. There are some base facilities I never build. And some game designs I find to be useless. Although it is great to have more options, because I'm sure there are some of you out there, that probably use these. So that's why I made this thread. Psi gates is a big one for me. What good are they? There are more as well, but I'll need to load up my last save game. I never build these facilities so I don't remember their names.

Maybe its just that fact that i like Industrial factions, (Hive Drones) but the ONLY base facilities i DONT want build are Punishment spheres and things that are rendered obsolete from secret projects - otherwise anythigns a go

Psi gates are rarely used but they still get built it I have time

I really disagree with the concept that the game has too many options. The more facilities and different styles of customization, the more options for strategies players can build... I think that you may be ignorant of the different tactics other players use, I wouldnt be so quick to dismiss any facility

I honestly can name a way in which every facility in the game could be critical to a strategy

I try to play an "ethical AC" even when the Hive, and that means I always keep my status "Noble" and never build PSes, but i do build Genejack factories and have never found them to affect my drones too much. Also i try to keep a perfect ecological rating at ALL my bases ALL the time

It all depends on what faction you play and what difficulty you choose

	16-01-2005 19:59									#24
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I'm sure Jamski had a thread analysing many of the facilities in great depth somewhere.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=112078

Enjoy

	16-01-2005 22:24									#25
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maybe I'll read that.

I mentioned the flachette systems above.

Do they work for you guys? That's what I was asking. It almost seemed like they weren't working for conventional missiles.

	16-01-2005 23:12									#26
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Each Flechette works once per turn.

	17-01-2005 00:21									#27
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Like most players I have tried everything out to see how it works. But a lot of the improvements I rarely build are late game stuff that isn't a priority when you are trying to shave off as many turns as possible to transcend.

The Space Elevator SP is way worse than any p-sphere. Can you imagine making your citizens listen to Kenny G. for several hours at a time? The 'no drones' SP is another bad one. Comes right at the very end of the game.

	17-01-2005 00:38									#28
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I'm definitely no expert. I play mostly as a builder or hybrid on Thinker and I find that once I get Advanced Spaceflight (usually the first or second level 8 tech obtained through blind research), it's game over. The rest is just icing on the cake.

(Nearly) never: Punishment Sphere, Paradise Garden, Temple of Planet, Brood Pit, Covert Ops Center, Tachyon Field, Quantum Converter, Nanoreplicator, Psi Gate, Genejack Factory, Flechette Defense System.

Rarely: Biology Lab, Centauri Preserve, Skunkwork, Robotic Assembly Plant.

Enough lead to get the secret project instead: Naval Yard, Aerospace Complex, Bioenhancement Center.

	17-01-2005 02:21									#29
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quote: Originally posted by RedFred Like most players I have tried everything out to see how it works. But a lot of the improvements I rarely build are late game stuff that isn't a priority when you are trying to shave off as many turns as possible to transcend. The Space Elevator SP is way worse than any p-sphere. Can you imagine making your citizens listen to Kenny G. for several hours at a time? The 'no drones' SP is another bad one. Comes right at the very end of the game.

telepathic matrix rules. I never build cloning vats without it. I usually try to beeline towards it getting cloning vats.

though sometimes wars such as in my last game dictate I get orbital defense pods first.

	17-01-2005 19:15									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident telepathic matrix rules. I never build cloning vats without it.

emphasis added

Are you saying you don't build the Cloning Vats until after you have the TeleMatrix?