16-01-2005 23:22									#31
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Don't freak, but I would bring $10,000 or so, if you can work up to that in the meantime. The worst thing that could happen is that you get there, the $2/5 tables are easy for you, but you can't step up to a slightly bigger table because of your lack of bankroll.

	16-01-2005 23:27									#32
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

10 000$ EEEEEEKKK

Anyhow, AC isn't that far away. It's not like it's my last chance for higher stakes tables. They have a 5-10 NL table at the Taj.

Will try to bring at least 1500$. Am willing to live with fact that I couldn't play a 10-20 NL table this time.

I really doubt my ability to beat a table like that anyway, unless it's filled with stupid rich ****s. You start to see real pros at that point I would guess. Probably swallow me whole...

	16-01-2005 23:27									#33
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Also, in preparation, buy Mike Caro's book about tells. In just a couple hour stretch, it helped me get out of one hand that I could have been taken for and into another that made me pretty big money ($500 range, IIRC).

Playing against flesh and blood people is a lot more of a psychological game than on-line.

	16-01-2005 23:30									#34
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Actually, just checked: they have 5-10 NL games on pr.com

Hmmm. That's odd. Single-table tournaments at 100+8 (highest regularly available game) are more equivalent to 2/4 NL cash games than they are to 5/10. I wonder why the cash games are available in so much larger denominations...

	16-01-2005 23:30									#35
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by DanS Also, in preparation, buy Mike Caro's book about tells. In just a couple hour stretch, it helped me get out of one hand that I could have been taken for and into another that made me pretty big money ($500 range, IIRC). Playing against flesh and blood people is a lot more of a psychological game than on-line.

I've been thinking about getting that book, actually...

	16-01-2005 23:37									#36
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: I really doubt my ability to beat a table like that anyway, unless it's filled with stupid rich ****s. You start to see real pros at that point I would guess. Probably swallow me whole...

I think you might be very surprised at the amount of money and lack of sense that these people have (or at least some of the people at the table will be very weak). That's why I'm encouraging you to bring as big of a bank roll as you can reasonably. Even with the $2/5 blind tables, I would suggest buying-in with $1,000.

Remember that people are cutting their teeth on the $2/5 and $5/10 tables. It's like the $0.25/0.50 tables on-line.

	16-01-2005 23:38									#37
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Hmm. Just checked my real bank account. Am pretty flush right now, despite having just bought an engagement ring so I can stop withdrawing money from poker for the next month and a half if I want to. We'll see. We'll also see how much time I can afford to spend on the computer over the next 6 weeks.

	16-01-2005 23:40									#38
	Got spare money?

I'll try bringing a significant portion of my online bankroll to Vegas with me. If I don't use it then no loss.

	16-01-2005 23:51									#39
	Inflate your Upload Space

Do you need an initial deposit of $100 even if you don't wan't to play with that much. I can't imagine I would need $100 sitting out there with .01/.02 limit games.

	17-01-2005 00:40									#40
	Suffering from ads?

No, you wouldn't need 100$ for 0.01/0.02

I brought that for 0.10-0.25 games, so I guess 10$ would be enough for 0.01-0.02

But remember that it costs 3.99 for each deposit through FirePay, so if you decide in 2 weeks to step up to a reasonable level you'll need to shell out 4 more bucks of your money.

I really don't know how much you'll learn at .01-.02

I would imagine that the play is pretty terrible.

.1-.25 you start to see people actually thinking about what they're doing, though in general not very well.

	17-01-2005 00:42									#41
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Oh, and in my first 2 hours of online play I lost 30$ at .1-.25, so it's quite possible to blow through 400 times the big blind. Then I firmed up and shot up to +60 in about another 3 hours.

	17-01-2005 03:14									#42
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Well, what's a poker thread without a reply by me?

Anyway, I had an excellent week last week:

1)I played on Pokerroom.com, and went up approximately $250.
2)I played two different homegames, and ended up winning $260 and $120.

All told I was up a little under $650 last week.

Here's what I don't like about online poker. I've found, and maybe this is just a coincidence, that if you win consistently three or four sessions in a row, you are going to take some ridiculously bad beats. For example, I stopped playing online last week after I dropped $40 in five minutes, losing hands where I flopped the nut flush, turned the nut straight, got dealt AA, etc.

Overall, though, I play low limit (.50-1.00 NL) poker online, and I play very conservatively. There is no need to take risks if you are willing to invest time in the game, because someone WILL call you much of the time in that type of low limit game. Avoid bluffing away all of your money - although if I'm in position I DO bluff constantly. I tend to take a stab at the pot by betting the size of the pot. If I get a caller that I feel is weak, and if the turn doesn't help any conceivable hand he can have, I make another, larger bet. While occasionally I do get called, this type of play tends to be profitable online.

I've also found that people are more likely to call all in bets than several dollars during each round of betting - sometimes you'd be surprised. Last night, for example, I went all in, in position, with AQ suited, and got called by someone holding A4 offsuit - he claimed to think I was bluffing, which, incidentally, is another reason that it's profitable to bluff small amounts constantly. Not only do you pick up dozens of small pots, but you also stop getting respect when you bet big - you will get called with any kind of a hand some of the time. The key is to know when to stop bluffing, and start playing your cards.

As I said, though, when I'm not bluffing I play very tightly. I only play the top ten or so hands, plus a couple of other hands that I just like to play (A9s, K9s, and suited drawing hands like J10, J9, T9, etc.).

KH,

quote: 1) Big pairs (AA and KK). What am I going to tell you that you don't already know? Get as much money into the pot preflop as you can. You want 1 or 2 opponents in there with you. Raise a sizable amount (4X size of BB?) to get rid of the crap hands, but if you raise too much everybody will fold and you will win the blinds alone.

Don't forget about position. With AA or KK under the gun (UTG), just limp in, in a 9 or 10 handed game. Someone will probably raise, and you can reraise. In a shorthanded game (5 or less people), go ahead and raise in about the way KH said, UNLESS you KNOW that someone is going to bet if you don't (for example, he's bet the past 8 pots preflop). As KH said, the key is to get as much money in as you can preflop, but sometimes the way to do this is by limping and reraising.

quote: 2) Little pairs (2s through 10s): Drawing hands. Get in for cheap and try to hit a set, unless you're in late position (on the button, say) and everybody else has folded, in which case it's time to try stealing some blinds. In limit same advice applies. Remember that hitting a monster like a set pays off much less in limit, so with 2 raises before you act just throw the little pair away.

However, don't forget that many people play Ax religiously. 22 is a better hand than AKs, much less any other Ace, so if you are heads up against someone who tends to play his Ace-big, and you feel the flop missed him (all small cards, for example), you can go ahead and bet.

quote: 3) Frustrating pairs (QQ and JJ): the worst-played hands in Hold Em IMO. Raise with them (similar amount to above; 4X size of BB should be a pretty standard opening bet) but be careful if you get people showing a lot of strength.

Keep this rule in mind, too. Raise big when you don't want to see a flop, raise small when you either want to see a flop or you want to reraise.

What I mean by that is this. If you are holding JJ, and someone else has A4, you probably don't want to raise a small amount and let him catch an Ace on the flop. You are holding a hand that is very vulnerable to one, and sometimes even two, overcards. Even KQ, KJ, Q10, etc., draws out on JJ on a regular basis.

So, raise more than you would with Aces, typically. If you raise $3 with AA or KK, I would suggest raising even more with JJ. If you get called, you probably still have the best hand, and in fact, even if you get raised, you STILL often have the best hand. KH warns against players showing strength when you hold JJ, however, the way I play, I tend to get reraised preflop a lot, because people don't give me credit for hands, and because they are sick of not being able to play pots. This frustrates people, and will make them likely to go over the top of me with A10.

When that happens, and I hold JJ or QQ, I will tend to reraise and go all in. This is NOT a correct play, following traditional poker logic, however, I can't tell you how many times I have caught people trying to reraise with Ace-anything, or a small pair, because they get frustrated with my style of play. It's a profitable move in many cases for me.

quote: 4) AK: this deserves a section to itself. The beautiful thing about AK is that it's better than AQ.

Excellent point, and one often forgetting. A lot of players don't raise with AK because it's "just a drawing hand". That's a mistake. AK is often the best hand preflop, and has a great potential for dominating smaller aces, or drawing out on small pairs. If I don't hit anything on the flop (either a four flush, a gutshot with two overs, or top pair top kick), I'll tend to just check and fold (again, I may bluff or call and draw, depending on the situation). If I hit a four flush or a gutshot with two overs, I'll usually value bet the flop, whereas if I hit a pair (or even two pair or trips) I'll try to suck people in a little more.

quote: 6) Weak aces. (A-2 to A-8 or A-9): never play a weak ace. Never play a weak ace. NEVER PLAY A WEAK ACE.

True, but don't forget about a)position, and b)number of players. A7 off is virtually worthless UTG in a 10 handed game, but A7 off is a great hand on the button in a 5 handed game when no one has raised.

quote: 7) Two in the wheelhouse

What I would add is that playing connectors with the potential to also be overcards (even when unsuited) can be profitable. By this I mean JT, QJ, KJ, KQ, and KT. You limp in cheap to see a flop, and make a decision from there. For example, if you have two overs with a backdoor draw, depending on the action and your position, you might make a stab at the pot.

Let me emphasize, though, that KH's advice is very solid. Some of the plays I'm describing are a little more advanced, so don't mess with them if you don't understand them.

	17-01-2005 03:20									#43
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: I've been thinking about getting that book, actually...

I have mixed feelings about Caro's book. It's OK, but it's mainly structured to give you reads on weak players. There's a much better way to get a read on a weak player, though, and that is how they bet. I have very few physical tells, but I can read almost anyone I consistently play with based on nothing more than their betting style.

	17-01-2005 03:54									#44
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I agree with some of your points(especially the ones about importance of numbers of players and position)

As I mentioned this assumes a full table. However, it's useful to note that in an unraised pot with few callers in late position you should act like it's a short table (5-6 players) in which case, of course, an A-7 does start to look pretty good. Knowing who you're playing against also starts to get really important at this point.

As for the rest, they are more advanced plays. They are dependent on your level of aggression and thus your table image. To start with you shouldn't worry too much about them. They're all part of the "mind games" I mentioned earlier. Generally wasted on weaker players who haven't even been paying attention to your play.

I disagree wholeheartedly with one piece of advice given by DF. While raising more does tend to drive more weak players out of a pot, it can also be an obvious tell that you don't want callers. Unless you mix it up with deliberate overbets on really really strong hands, it's a losing play. Try to have a pretty standard raise preflop. Don't structure your preflop raises based on the strength of the hand when you're playing people who take note of that sort of thing (which I can tell you that I do).

	17-01-2005 04:09									#45
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by David Floyd I have mixed feelings about Caro's book. It's OK, but it's mainly structured to give you reads on weak players. There's a much better way to get a read on a weak player, though, and that is how they bet. I have very few physical tells, but I can read almost anyone I consistently play with based on nothing more than their betting style.

Really weak players are driven by their emotions, however, which swing from one side to the other over the course of a night depending on how they're doing. The weaker the player the harder it is to tell what they have just because of how they bet. Conversely, most strong players probably don't give off too many physical tells.

Of course, the strongest players disguise both their physical tells and their betting pattern (they're aware of what their bets tell other people and thus deliberately do things which aren't straightforward). Mediocre players are good enough to act logically but not good enough to realise that this tells me what they have.

	17-01-2005 04:19									#46
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I've only had a few times where I got a really good read on somebody because of a physical reaction. It's really amazing when it happens.

One of the times it was on a raised pot in a NL tourney. Only me and one other guy in the pot. I'm holding A-2 (forgive me; there were only 3 people at the table at this point). Flop comes A-Q-7. I bet slightly more than the pot, he comes back over the top of me for all his chips (we were holding similar stacks). I looked at him as I said "I'm holding an Ace. What do you think about that". He said "I don't know", but his voice broke with tension as he said it. It was clear as day to me that I should call him at that point, and I was right. He was holding A-5. We were almost guaranteed to split the pot, and I thus had odds to call him. As it turns out, I spiked a 2 and took the whole thing, but the important part was that his weakness was as clear as day in his voice. I knew he either had a really weak ace or a queen. No way was he in strength at that point.

	17-01-2005 04:31									#47
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Reading somebody's hand online due to betting happens all the time to me though.

One of the funniest things I've seen was today in a single table 30+3 NL tournament. There are 6 people left. Pot is raised ~3 times size of BB. Only 2 people stay in pot (I'm not one of them). One is what seems to be a decent (not great by any means) player. The other one is a wacko. Flop comes A-8-8. Decent player is first to act. He bets 1/2 size of pot. Wacko raises him 2 times pot. Decent player calls. Turn comes A. Decent player checks. Wacko raises same amount as last time. At this point I think it was clear to anybody with half a brain that the decent player was holding an ace and the wacko was holding an 8. Decent player comes over the top for all in as though we needed any further confirmation. I literally said "duh" to myself. Wacko calls. Of course, wacko is holding 7-8 offsuit and decent player is holding A-10.

All I could think to myself was that my dead grandmother knew decent player was holding a ****ing ace. Why didn't wacko?

	17-01-2005 05:43									#48
	Mistakes Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

One of many. I was too cute by half and it probably cost me the pot.

quote: Seat 1: csmoke33 ($3,015 in chips) Seat 2: ronbigt ($1,610 in chips) Seat 4: f-tank ($2,150 in chips) Seat 6: yourmom1 ($1,045 in chips) Seat 7: elcapiton777 ($2,275 in chips) Seat 8: opah ($2,670 in chips) Seat 9: baba xx ($1,105 in chips) Seat 10: DanS [8H,6S] ($1,130 in chips) ANTES/BLINDS baba xx posts blind ($25), DanS posts blind ($50). PRE-FLOP csmoke33 folds, ronbigt calls $50, f-tank calls $50, yourmom1 folds, elcapiton777 folds, opah calls $50, baba xx folds, DanS checks. FLOP [board cards 8D,QS,8S ] DanS checks, ronbigt checks, f-tank checks, opah checks. TURN [board cards 8D,QS,8S,10D ] DanS bets $200, ronbigt bets $400, f-tank folds, opah folds, DanS bets $880 and is all-in, ronbigt bets $1,160 and is all-in. RIVER [board cards 8D,QS,8S,10D,KH ] SHOWDOWN ronbigt shows [ 10C,10S ] DanS shows [ 8H,6S ] ronbigt wins $480, ronbigt wins $2,385. SUMMARY Dealer: opah Pot: $2,865 csmoke33, loses $0 ronbigt, bets $1,610, collects $2,865, net $1,255 f-tank, loses $50 yourmom1, loses $0 elcapiton777, loses $0 opah, loses $50 baba xx, loses $25 DanS, loses $1,130

	17-01-2005 06:06									#49
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: I disagree wholeheartedly with one piece of advice given by DF. While raising more does tend to drive more weak players out of a pot, it can also be an obvious tell that you don't want callers. Unless you mix it up with deliberate overbets on really really strong hands, it's a losing play. Try to have a pretty standard raise preflop. Don't structure your preflop raises based on the strength of the hand when you're playing people who take note of that sort of thing (which I can tell you that I do).

I understand your point, on the other hand, though, you're the one who suggested raising 4x the BB with AA. I would assume that's not your standard raise, right?

There are also situations where you may want to go all-in based on your position - you know you have the best hand, and you don't mind all the money going in pre-flop if someone's dumb enough to call, but you also know that your hand can be drawn out on and don't want to have to worry about it post-flop. That's my point re: JJ. Bet big, and if someone reraises, correctly assuming you don't have AA/KK and are somewhat weak, then put them all in. They most likely don't have AA, KK, or QQ, and they most likely don't have a hand with which to call your all in, and EVEN IF they do, your JJ is still going to be the best hand preflop.

At the same time, though, you're right about the size of raises. My post-flop raises tend to be fairly consistent whether or not I'm bluffing.

quote: The weaker the player the harder it is to tell what they have just because of how they bet.

That isn't my experience. Weak players bet when they are strong, and check when they are weak.

	17-01-2005 06:30									#50
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by David Floyd I understand your point, on the other hand, though, you're the one who suggested raising 4x the BB with AA. I would assume that's not your standard raise,

Yes it is.

	17-01-2005 06:34									#51
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by David Floyd That isn't my experience. Weak players bet when they are strong, and check when they are weak.

The opposite is more generally true, actually. Especially when they're losing.

I find that weak players make such a broad range of plays (since they themselves don't understand the strength of their hands and wouldn't know how to bet even if they did) that they are much more difficult to read than a mediocre player

	17-01-2005 07:16									#52
	Put an end to popups!

I would agree that people like to be all-in at the lower level tables on-line. I don't know why this little quirk of human psychology is as it is.

Also, the common wisdom is that beginners tend to be erratic and that you just play them straight up and be patient.

	17-01-2005 14:31									#53
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

DanS, your last point is pretty much spot-on, in my experience, with the addition that the betting style of beginners tends to create extremely easy tells.

	17-01-2005 16:29									#54
	Full PM-box? Change here!

That's not what he said.

	17-01-2005 18:53									#55
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

In Vegas watch out for pros at all stakes. I've seen them at low stakes games. The wormy sort of character who I would have destroyed in my poker playing prime but who could be dangerous to me now that some rust has accumulated. He'll know how to play well (solid fundamentals) but at low stakes the odds are that he won't be inspired unless he's on his way up.

Be willing to walk away from the table if it isn't going well, or something has changed for the worse (dealer or player you don't like has arrived). Remember well that scene in Rounders where all of the NY small time pros run into one another in Atlantic City and proceed to carve up the few guys at the table who aren't part of the fraternity. There are several sorts of numerical disadvantages. One is your chip pile vs your opponent's pile. Another more serious one is you vs a couple of friends. They can work you over much more efficiently than either of them can alone. Watch for this at higher stakes especially.

Anyway, I found that I made the most money in Vegas by hitting and running, never spending more than 2 hours at a single table, and the vast majority of the time an hour or less. Whenever I have camped out I have lost money. Wear a watch, there are no clocks there.

	18-01-2005 07:16									#56
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

What's "wheelhouse?"

	18-01-2005 11:01									#57
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I saw a funny hand yesterday before the flop. #1 bets $200, #2 goes all-in (about $3,000), #3 goes all-in (about $10,000), #1 calls all. #1 turns over 6-3 offsuit. #2 turns over K-K. #3 turns over K-K. #1 wins the pot with two pair.

Last edited by DanS on 18-01-2005 at 11:06

	18-01-2005 11:15									#58
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Won $800 in play money on Ultimatebet, will see if I have the nerve soon to actually putting money in..

	18-01-2005 17:34									#59
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger What's "wheelhouse?"

10 through K

	18-01-2005 17:35									#60
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Won $800 in play money on Ultimatebet, will see if I have the nerve soon to actually putting money in..

Meaningless. I won 350$ real money yesterday in 4 hours