17-01-2005 02:20									#91
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I don't think they outlawed it. At least not sports betting...

	17-01-2005 02:23									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Without the west, Sweden would have been ideologically swallowed up over the last 60-70 years.

We are - by the West.

quote: Switzerland has a very large army but a small standing army, does Sweden rely on militia?

We had a standing army of 40-50 000 men, which would be 700 000 after mobilisation.

quote: --- Even the Swedes see the problem and trimming their welfare system...

As I said earlier in this thread, our system is rather liberal than socialist since the last few decades. So you are right there.

	17-01-2005 02:24									#93
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They're strict on other "immoral" stuff though, like prostitution (buying sex is illegal) and alcohol.
But not mainly for moral reasons mind you, but rather feminism gone overboard and health issues.

	17-01-2005 02:28									#94
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This makes me think if people have unrealistic views about other countries they seem to be knowing a lot more than others.

First of all, some people here claim it's the paradise and perfect. Wow. It's a great country but it's not perfect. And like CO said, it's not socialist. Some socialists/commies here seem to be salivating all that suggests something close to socialism working somewhere, that it 's the best thing and there's the proof. But it isn't even a socialist country, really. Same goes for all 'fans' of systems. They hear good things about it somewhere and they don't even bother to check the facts, it's working perfectly there, it's a paradise and that's it. Very little critique. Like believing you can fly.

The other side of the group is the ones who think the opposite of the system. As if Sweden is about to fall. Come on. Who of you have actually even visited Sweden? Or taken an interest what happens there, more than jsut few articles a year? How can some people claim they know anything about Sweden anyway? Well the Swedes in here can of course, but msot of you have very little idea of the big picture of the country. You just pick what you like and go with it. Or you pick what you don't like and go with that. That's like the most biased way of seeing things. Blinders on my boys and full steam ahead!

Some people seem to remember they took neutrality in WWII. So? Sweden has fought numerous battles in its history. They have more battles in their account than most of us.

There are only few countries, that have taken a reasonable route, meaning they have experience and they have learned from it well, that function today who have had a bit of glory too. One of them is UK. They were imperialistic bastards for a long time. But they seem to be quite nice now and well off. One of course is Sweden. They had their moments too. But now they know better and play smart. They don't feel like they have to live up the legacy and start stirring up crap, for old times sake. And yes they still have a King. They had the Vikings, and they've had all kinds of bloody adventures. So they missed one big rumble, is that so bad? Their first responsibility is to their own citizens. Looking at the picture now, after it's all said and done, they did the right thing, holding on to that priority, succesfully. We might not like it, but losers always whine anyway.

	17-01-2005 02:30									#95
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quote: yea, Germany declared war on the US, after we declared war on Japan.

Yup, thats correct.

	17-01-2005 02:32									#96
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quote: First of all, some people here claim it's the paradise and perfect.

I think that may have been a troll by Aggie .

	17-01-2005 02:40									#97
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All I'm saying is, I feel I have some experience and knowledge about our neighbours, and it would be the country I know the most of outside my own country, so some of these statements made by furriners seem a bit odd. It shows me they really do not know a lot about Sweden in a big arena of things, just some things. They might have heard about some battles, or read about them in the past, vikings, ikea, volvo, h&m, stockholm is the capital, been there once for a day or two, nice chicks, king, swedish meatballs, hockey, princess, neutral, 'socialist', next to norway, part of scandinavia. That's what most people know. Then that somehow makes you have a license to make all professional statements about the place. Right.

	17-01-2005 02:42									#98
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All I know is that Princess has nice boobs.

	17-01-2005 02:45									#99
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quote: Some people seem to remember they took neutrality in WWII. So? Sweden has fought numerous battles in its history. They have more battles in their account than most of us.

WWII was a bad time to become neutral, tens of millions died and many more would have died if the Axis won. If you can't get off the fence when the morality of resistance is so obvious, what good are ya?

quote: The other side of the group is the ones who think the opposite of the system. As if Sweden is about to fall.

"Fall"ing means economic decline followed by reform of the system, not oblivion. And this has already happened, Sweden is being passed on the list of wealthy nations and they are "trimming" their system to increase competitiveness.

	17-01-2005 02:46									#100
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Right, the thing I was meant to say was that what ever Sweden's economy is looking now, or in the past few decades, or the future interpretations.. it's really not a indicator of anything at all. Not in favour of socialism, not in favour of capitalism, not in favour of anything really. This is the guess circle, where assumptions are made on top of assumptions etc, and we believe that to be true. But there are lot of premisses we just made up or didn't know anything about at all. So basically I'd say every interpretation is BS.

	17-01-2005 02:47									#101
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I agree with Pekka

	17-01-2005 02:50									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka That's what most people know. Then that somehow makes you have a license to make all professional statements about the place. Right.

In principle you're right. People do this all the time - whether it's Sweden, the United States, France, Germany or just about all others. Hell, I've probably done so myself once in a while.

So I guess the moral of the story is to get out and visit other countries. Right now, that one day in Malmø is all I can afford - but later on there's work to be done

	17-01-2005 02:51									#103
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quote: All I know is that Princess has nice boobs.

	17-01-2005 03:03									#105
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quote: WWII was a bad time to become neutral, tens of millions died and many more would have died if the Axis won. If you can't get off the fence when the morality of resistance is so obvious, what good are ya?

Um... actually for Scandinavia, the choices were Nazi Germany OR the USSR. The morality of resistance isn't so obvious there.

	17-01-2005 03:04									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Was that supposed to be a convincing rebuttal? I didn't start this thread (complaining about "rage" and mentioning only me ) , and I'm relying on the information in the article so complain to the author.

I don't think I would have to make a rebuttal as you're explicitly saying that you don't really know what you're talking about.

	17-01-2005 03:17									#107
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quote: Um... actually for Scandinavia, the choices were Nazi Germany OR the USSR. The morality of resistance isn't so obvious there.

The morality isn't ambiguous, the wisdom of outright resistance would be since it might have been little more than suicide. I agree to an extent, If I was a Swede and faced with invasion from either country, I'd wait until help arrived before making my resistance more obvious.
But I wouldn't pretend the US provided no security over the years either because I was "neutral", that neutrality only helps when there are other bigger and badder people around to inhibit the ambitions of a Hitler... Sweden is like Canada, they survive by being a stealth country.

Krop

quote: I don't think I would have to make a rebuttal as you're explicitly saying that you don't really know what you're talking about.

Gee, had I said that I wouldn't be asking you to prove me right. You and Che doing a Fez imitation?

	17-01-2005 03:26									#108
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Right. But Sweden's only powerplay, just like any smaller nations would be to stay neutral. If they make a move for or against, they become pawns of the bigger ones.

	17-01-2005 03:39									#109
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They were pawns, they sold iron ore and their souls to the Nazis. Its kinda like a Pope whitewashing Nazi atrocities. But this is not a debate about the efficacy of resistance, its about why Sweden could afford an expensive welfare state and if that system is having trouble because of competition. The article is pretty clear on that, but some here refuse to recognise the limitations on welfare states.

	17-01-2005 03:49									#110
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quote: yea, Germany declared war on the US, after we declared war on Japan.

Of course, we were already conducting an illegal, undeclared war on Germany to begin with.

Berzerker,

quote: They were pawns, they sold iron ore and their souls to the Nazis.

If they had refused to sell iron ore, they would simply have been invaded and Germany would have just taken it all. The Western Allies could not do ANYTHING to help Sweden, especially once Norway fell. The only sea access to Sweden is in the Baltic, which was basically a German lake, and the only overland routes were through German quasi-ally Finland, and German-occupied Norway.

But by the way, speaking of selling souls, the US and Britain gave billions of dollars worth of war material and economic assistance to the Soviet Union, which in the long run was responsible for the murder of more innocents than the Nazis

If it were up to me we would have just let the Nazis and Soviets destroy each other, and stay out of the war, saving US lives, until we could end the whole thing with an atomic bomb

	17-01-2005 04:02									#111
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quote: They were pawns, they sold iron ore and their souls to the Nazis.

Come on, Berz. Given Sweden's position they would have ended up like Norway or even worse, Poland.

It was better for all concerned that they stay neutral. It certainly didn't harm them, and in the end it didn't harm us very much.

	17-01-2005 04:05									#112
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quote: The morality isn't ambiguous, the wisdom of outright resistance would be since it might have been little more than suicide.

Well, I'd say if you were Sweden, you'd probably view the war as Germany v. USSR. In that case, both are a bunch of arseholes who deserve no support, morally or physically The US and UK being on the side of the USSR probably made little difference as both were genocidal regimes. I guess it depends on perspective.

	17-01-2005 06:04									#113
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd But by the way, speaking of selling souls, the US and Britain gave billions of dollars worth of war material and economic assistance to the Soviet Union, which in the long run was responsible for the murder of more innocents than the Nazis

That's debatable, unless one lays the war deaths from WWII at Germany's feet, at which point it becomes no contest. The amount of innocent people killed by the Soviet government depends entirely upon which partisan hack you believe, since there are NO reliable sources on that subject.

	17-01-2005 06:11									#114
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quote: The amount of innocent people killed by the Soviet government depends entirely upon which partisan hack you believe, since there are NO reliable sources on that subject.

But then again, I wouldn't condone giving Lend Lease-type aid to ANY government that murdered people on the scale that Stalin's government did, regardless of numbers. **** 'em.

	17-01-2005 06:16									#115
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If the Soviets collapsed, we'd have lost the war.

	17-01-2005 06:20									#116
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Bullshit. The atomic bomb would have won it, no questions asked. The US needed NO allies to win the war, in the long run.

	17-01-2005 06:24									#117
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So, Berzie, if Sweden only got where it is by being socialists schmoozing off the manly capitalist USA during the cold war, then how do you explain Finland?

Finland is just as "socialist" as Sweden, with similar success, but had none of these (unfair?) advantages you claim were the only reason Sweden could succeed.

Funny isn't it?

	17-01-2005 06:28									#118
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quote: Bullshit. The atomic bomb would have won it, no questions asked.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. They weren't even sure that the damn thing would work.

It makes no sense to bet the war on that.

	17-01-2005 06:35									#119
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quote: Hindsight is a wonderful thing. They weren't even sure that the damn thing would work. It makes no sense to bet the war on that.

Well, in that case, saying that the war was justified because of the Holocaust is another case of hindsight. Not that you've made that claim yet, of course

My point, of course, is we should have stayed out of the war to begin with, which we could easily have done if we hadn't been attacking German U-boats and ****ing with Japan's economy.

If, eventually, Germany made a bid for world domination and went after the US, we'd have the atomic bomb - which we began developing BEFORE we entered the war, by the way - and the Germans wouldn't, because German scientists had already decided it was impossible to build, and Hitler wasn't interested in it anyway.

	17-01-2005 06:36									#120
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That assumes that the U.S. could have gotten one operational before the Nazis took Britain, which would have been a lot easier for them once the USSR was out of the way. Where would the U.S. base it's bombers to hit Germany, Iceland?