17-01-2005 14:28									#151
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quote: The rules had changed. Air supremacy over the channel would be all that was needed. The Home Fleet would not have dared to sortie if the Luftwaffe had gained air superiority over the channel and south eastern England.

Are you seriously suggesting that the Home Fleet would not have intervened against an invasion of England, even in the face of German air superiority?

I assure you, this would have happened, and I assure you that enough elements of the Home Fleet would have survived to crush any German amphibious forces in the Channel and isolate any German forces in England.

The only realistic way for Germany to invade England would have involved a)a prior crushing defeat of the Home Fleet, and b)absolute and complete air superiority over the Channel and southeastern England.

Fulfilling both of those requirements was FAR beyond the capability of Germany in 1940, and once the US entered the war, even if Germany had the resources of all of Europe and the Soviet Union, Germany still couldn't have forced a successful invasion of England prior to the US developing the atomic bomb.

	17-01-2005 14:38									#152
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quote: I do, to some extent, buy the domino theory argument

The Vietnamese hated the Chinese more than us, we were just the latest bully to move in and tell them what to do. When the war ended and the Khmer Rouge went on the warpath, it was the Vietnamese who went in and ended their regime. China did not like that, but they weren't about to try and muscle the Viets. So one communist regime snuffed out another one right next door in defiance of yet another.

CO

quote: Hitler and Stalin were the real enemies, no doubt. And to join the war, we would have to make one of them our friends, while at the same time making one of our brother nations (Finland or Norway) our enemies. Which side should we choose? Both sides were purely evil. Better to stay out.

Do you mean Finland would have attacked Sweden on behalf of Germany? No way, the Finns were only "allies" with the Nazis because the Russians tried to invade Finland. Hell, the Finns never helped the Nazis in any battles, they just defended themselves from attack.

quote: Imagine what domestic welfare US could have done with the tax money you wasted in Vietnam? And don't give me that old BS that it was necessary to keep Sovjet at bay.

Okay, I wont.

	17-01-2005 14:44									#153
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quote: The Vietnamese hated the Chinese more than us, we were just the latest bully to move in and tell them what to do.

Oh, absolutely, I don't pretend otherwise. However, I think it's also reasonable to assume that the Soviets would have greatly increased their influence in Southeast Asia without US involvement. The Soviets already had a good deal of influence with India, and if you add to that a stable regime in Vietnam, then the Soviets are looking pretty strong in the region, and would be able to support communists to a great extent in Cambodia, Laos, and even Indonesia.

Australia and South Korea would have gotten REAL nervous if the US had backed away from Vietnam.

quote: When the war ended and the Khmer Rouge went on the warpath, it was the Vietnamese who went in and ended their regime. China did not like that, but they weren't about to try and muscle the Viets. So one communist regime snuffed out another one right next door in defiance of yet another.

True, yet the Chinese and Vietnamese were historical enemies - it was only natural that they would act against each other. Hell, the Chinese even invaded Vietnam in the late 1970s.

Again, though, a lack of US influence would almost certainly have led to a much increased Soviet influence over Southeast Asia.

	17-01-2005 15:29									#154
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Do you mean Finland would have attacked Sweden on behalf of Germany? No way, the Finns were only "allies" with the Nazis because the Russians tried to invade Finland. Hell, the Finns never helped the Nazis in any battles, they just defended themselves from attack.

In the Continuation war, the Finns went on attack to regain what they had lost in the Winter war. If we had joined the allies, Stalin would had demanded that we attacked Finland in the back to keep them out of Sovjet. Bad idea.

	17-01-2005 15:30									#155
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Coming back to the original topic , once economic globalisation is achieved ( effectively ) , Sweden will face a huge competitive disadvantage . That is the time to watch for its decline .

	17-01-2005 15:34									#156
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd **** welfare, imagine the tax cuts!

Yes, or that.

	17-01-2005 15:37									#157
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quote: Originally posted by aneeshm Coming back to the original topic , once economic globalisation is achieved ( effectively ) , Sweden will face a huge competitive disadvantage . That is the time to watch for its decline .

Actually, most of the Western world would face competitive disadvantage, because we are all used to high salaries. Welfare systems or not.

	17-01-2005 15:40									#158
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Didn't read the article but Sweden and poverty? No I do n't think so.. it's a nice place and wealthy place as well. Of course, every country has their fair share of poor people, but not as much that we should put Sweden and poverty together.

Sweden, like Denmark and Norway, exported their poor to the USA

I'm convinced that as result of the internet the USA is going to change because ordinary US citizens will start to realise just how ripped off they are. They live in the richest country in the world but many other countries have a much higher standard of living and better quality of life.

You see it here on Apolyton all the time - most of us kind of feel sorry for ordinary Americans and all they put up with.

	17-01-2005 15:45									#159
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quote: Hell, the Chinese even invaded Vietnam in the late 1970s.

Damn, I didn't know that. Why? Btw, the Chinese wouldn't stand for the Russians having too much influence because they hate each other too. Ain't it funny how all these commies couldn't get along? Oh well, nationalism is stronger than internationalism.

quote: In the Continuation war, the Finns went on attack to regain what they had lost in the Winter war. If we had joined the allies, Stalin would had demended that we attacked Finland in the back to keep them out of Sovjet. Bad idea.

So Sweden would have had to attack the Nazis and the Finns because Joe was mad at Finland? The US would have politely declined. But did Stalin make this request?
If not, I doubt he would have cared if Sweden attacked Germany after the spring of '41 without attacking Finland.

	17-01-2005 15:49									#160
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quote: If not, I doubt he would have cared if Sweden attacked Germany after the spring of '41 without attacking Finland.

Look at a map - we were surrounded by Germany. Attacking them would have been a very bad idea, even when most of their troops were tied up elsewere.

	17-01-2005 15:53									#161
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quote: Actually, most of the Western world would face competitive disadvantage, because we are all used to high salaries. Welfare systems or not.

Yup, globalisation is about shifting production to lower wage regions. Painful but I'd think egalitarians would love it since its the best way to build up the 3rd world. Should be good for the west too after a while, more consumers is a good thing (well, unless you're a Malthusian).

quote: I'm convinced that as result of the internet the USA is going to change because ordinary US citizens will start to realise just how ripped off they are. They live in the richest country in the world but many other countries have a much higher standard of living and better quality of life.

Our system is corrupt for sure, but not because government has too much respect for private property. I'd much rather have the bulk of those taxes I pay in my pocket, but we've embraced the redistribution of wealth.

	17-01-2005 15:55									#162
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no you haven't

	17-01-2005 15:59									#163
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie quote: If not, I doubt he would have cared if Sweden attacked Germany after the spring of '41 without attacking Finland. Look at a map - we were surrounded by Germany. Attacking them would have been a very bad idea, even when most of their troops were tied up elsewere.

In any case, USSR was the bigger threat to us. We were much more likely to team up against the Soviets to help the Finns to survive.

	17-01-2005 16:02									#164
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quote: Look at a map - we were surrounded by Germany. Attacking them would have been a very bad idea, even when most of their troops were tied up elsewere.

Y'all could have helped the Norwegians boot them out of Norway. You could have waited for an allied beachhead in mainland Europe too, anything, something. Oh well, I'm not really into a WWII debate and Monday morning QBing. I just wanted to point out to Agathon that Sweden got a free ride because Aggie says libertarianism would fail because of the free rider phenomenon.

	17-01-2005 16:22									#165
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker I just wanted to point out to Agathon that Sweden got a free ride because Aggie says libertarianism would fail because of the free rider phenomenon.

Finland, Denmark and Norway all took part in WW2, still they are rich countries and have welfare systems similar to ours. Norway and Denmark are also NATO members, still they had lots of money to spend on welfare during the cold war.

Our neutrality during the cold war actually forced us to spend a lot of money on the military, as we had nobody to rely on but ourselves. But we used it to guard our own borders, not to waste it on imperialistic adventures a'la Vietnam (or currently Iraq).

Your explanation about "freerider due to US protection" does simply not fit the observations.

	17-01-2005 17:10									#166
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If the USA had not been there to check Europe's bad boys, Sweden would have been swallowed up by the Nazis or Russians. Those two countries conquered or controlled almost all of Europe, there is just no way Sweden would have retained autonomy without a fight. And it wasn't just that Sweden could enjoy the savings in budget priorities, Sweden got rich because of all the damage to other countries. Once they recovered, Sweden lost its advantage and is slipping in wealth due to its autocratic economic system.

	17-01-2005 17:19									#167
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quote: I assure you, this would have happened, and I assure you that enough elements of the Home Fleet would have survived to crush any German amphibious forces in the Channel and isolate any German forces in England.

You must be joking. The lesson of WWII is that surface ships cannot hope to hold out against air power. Why do you think that the British were so desperate to stop the Bismarck before it reached air cover provided by German naval bombers?

Get a clue man, the wrecks of the Prince of Wales and Repulse are testament to what would have happened had the Home Fleet attempted to defend the Channel in the face of German air superiority.

	17-01-2005 17:30									#168
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker If the USA had not been there to check Europe's bad boys, Sweden would have been swallowed up by the Nazis or Russians. Those two countries conquered or controlled almost all of Europe, there is just no way Sweden would have retained autonomy without a fight. And it wasn't just that Sweden could enjoy the savings in budget priorities, Sweden got rich because of all the damage to other countries. Once they recovered, Sweden lost its advantage and is slipping in wealth due to its autocratic economic system.

Did you read my last post at all? Our goverment spendings did not exlude the military. And our Nordic neighbours are rich despite war damage, NATO membership AND welfare systems.

	17-01-2005 17:52									#169
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quote: Once they recovered, Sweden lost its advantage and is slipping in wealth due to its autocratic economic system.

But it is still doing better than the United States. Read the opening post. These are the facts.

	17-01-2005 18:26									#170
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Interrupting the ww2 discussion for a moment... Tt's a good, well balanced article. A bit on the long side, though.

I have some small quibbles (eg. Mauricio Rojas libertarian??) but they don't really lead anywhere. It deserves to be said again that the Swedish model is/was hardly socialism. The government barely dipped their toes inyo socialization of the economy, and that's a closed chapter nowadays anyway. Commitment to free markets and free competition is as strong as most anywhere else. Generous health benefits to workers or whatever doesn't enter into that. My impression is that Britain, France, Italy all had more "socialized" economies than Sweden, looking back on the post-war period.

Like the article implies, Sweden is an example of the "virtues" of political stability. There are two points to this:

1. A rare cultural (-> institutional) homogeneity, which is indeed founded in a quite brutal history of centralization and Swedification of fringe areas going back to the 16th-17th C, as well as sparse population and relative isolation.

2. The agreement of cooperation between unions and employers leading to a virtually conflict-free labor political environment, especially true in the critical period from ww2 till the 70s. The almost as important flipside is the government's in turn favoring, legislative and sometimes otherwise, of a couple of established big companies.

The communists were the true pariahs of Swedish politics, and for good reason, because labor consensus was/is a critical condition for the existence of Swedish model. The communists disturbed that peace (or it was feared that they would). That's also the reason for the wide-spread and natural Social democratic party/Police intelligence cooperation in secretly registering communists during the cold war (the IB scandal).

To return to the former paragraph, a perhaps obvious cost has been to stifle the growth of small businesses, which is one of the problems facing present Sweden because these are often the vital "creators" of new jobs. Ideas and inventions certainly aren't lacking, but their development is.

Another problem, that I don't know whether the article mentioned or not, is low social mobility. I remember a recent study about the lack of correlation between income and "fortune" for the vast majority (80 % ?) of Swedish families, excluding the extremes. Which means that working your way up to success is, if not impossible, infeasible for most.

Oh yeah, food is bad and expensive and the climate is dark and not-hot. And hope you like trees. The bit about the gorgeous women is still true though...

	17-01-2005 18:35									#171
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Sorry Kitschum.

I'm sure that was an interesting post, but I couldn't finish it. I can't read two lines of anything about Sweden without thinking of being in a Swedish princess boob sandwich.

Still, it does mean that I never get to think anything bad about your country.

	17-01-2005 18:38									#172
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Sorry Kitschum. I'm sure that was an interesting post, but I couldn't finish it. I can't read two lines of anything about Sweden without thinking of being in a Swedish princess boob sandwich. Still, it does mean that I never get to think anything bad about your country.

Where were you all when her sister (our future Queen) studied in Stamford, CT?

	17-01-2005 18:53									#173
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Sorry Kitschum. I'm sure that was an interesting post, but I couldn't finish it. I can't read two lines of anything about Sweden without thinking of being in a Swedish princess boob sandwich. Still, it does mean that I never get to think anything bad about your country.

Naturally I forgive you. If you're interested in a short version, just read the first, the third and the last paragraphs.

	17-01-2005 19:04									#174
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker A fart in the wind... And a silent one at that...just like Sweden's silence during WWII. Euros want to trash the USA but get real thin skinned when the history of their country ain't exactly a beacon of morality either.

You're mixing apples and oranges. Are you trying to make a fruit salad?

	17-01-2005 19:13									#175
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker No doubt Pekka, I have more faith in people than governments so I'd expect the Swedish Joe Blow to hate kissing Nazi a@@, but the war might have ended earlier without the Soviets grabbing half of Europe if the Swedes joined in after Barbarosa slowed to a halt.

You're seriously overestimating Sweden's military strength in 1941/42. They Germans estimated, in 1943, that the occupational forces in Norway alone should be enough to, should it become necessary, defeat and occupy Sweden, and while that might have been overly optimistic, it does say something about the relative strengths.

The amusing bit is that we might have ended up fighting against Finland in a such scenario ...

	17-01-2005 19:22									#176
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd True, yet the Chinese and Vietnamese were historical enemies - it was only natural that they would act against each other. Hell, the Chinese even invaded Vietnam in the late 1970s. Again, though, a lack of US influence would almost certainly have led to a much increased Soviet influence over Southeast Asia.

And yet, after the US was defeated and forced to leave AND Vietnam stopped China and got rid of the psycho-maoist Khmer Rougue regime, all the Soviets got in South East Asia was naval bases, which did nothing to shift the international balance.

	17-01-2005 19:29									#177
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quote: Kitschum wrote: Another problem, that I don't know whether the article mentioned or not, is low social mobility. I remember a recent study about the lack of correlation between income and "fortune" for the vast majority (80 % ?) of Swedish families, excluding the extremes. Which means that working your way up to success is, if not impossible, infeasible for most.

While true, it's worth noting that, again according to The Economist, the correlation between the income of fathers and that of their sons is higher in the US than in Sweden.

	17-01-2005 19:46									#178
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My only addition to this thread is a big for the Swedish Royal family. If the only thing of worth credited to their name is the current princess, then they outscore the rest of the world's monarchies combined

-Arrian

	17-01-2005 19:51									#179
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist quote: Kitschum wrote: Another problem, that I don't know whether the article mentioned or not, is low social mobility. I remember a recent study about the lack of correlation between income and "fortune" for the vast majority (80 % ?) of Swedish families, excluding the extremes. Which means that working your way up to success is, if not impossible, infeasible for most. While true, it's worth noting that, again according to The Economist, the correlation between the income of fathers and that of their sons is higher in the US than in Sweden.

I must've missed that reference. Which article/issue, please?

	17-01-2005 20:44									#180
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