16-01-2005 06:21									#1
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Veteran Phalanx fortified at hill in town - how much defense is it?

2*1,5*1,5*2 = 9 or 2*3 = 6 or...?

	16-01-2005 06:43									#2
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Unless someone has noted differently in the last 3 years- which is entirely possible- it's all multiplied one after the other.

	16-01-2005 06:44									#3
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So the 1st one.

	16-01-2005 14:45									#4
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So it's nothing special to lose a vet catapult, thx

	16-01-2005 16:14									#5
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Details here:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=22856

	16-01-2005 21:29									#6
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Theben's answer agrees with a statement in the combat formula thread, that percentages are multiplied together... not added. I just did a ltitle testing and confirmed that CFG's phalanx (9) survives almost every time against a non-vet catapult (6).

I still wonder if this is correct For example, if CFG's phalanx is behind walls (x3) and on a river (x1.5) then it has a defense factor of 40, which makes it almost immortal. Does this seem correct?

Also, from the combat thread - what are these 2 variables ? Is "d" the number that CGF asked about?

"a = the attacker's modified attack factor, and
d = the defender's modified defense factor"

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BTW - Civ2 percentages are often added and not multiplied (for example, the effect of libraries and universities, etc on beakers). To me, this is usually not clear from the civilopaedia.

	16-01-2005 22:44									#7
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Peaster,

I would say "yes, CGF is asking about d = modified defence factor".
As to your chosen example (rivered hill + city walls), I would say d = 27 (because walls give you x3, but you lose the x1.5 for fortified unit).
This means that you need really strong units to get rid that kind of devils (any experienced player has shouted @à"# words when painfully discovering that kind of truth ).

	17-01-2005 04:13									#8
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quote: Originally posted by La Fayette This means that you need really strong units to get rid that kind of devils

Or a diplomat. Unless, of course, the AI sneak attacks you

	17-01-2005 18:15									#9
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quote: Originally posted by La Fayette This means that you need really strong units to get rid that kind of devils

... or a large number of moderately strong units. My off-the-cuff estimating scheme says you'd need 5-6 vet catapults to take out the phalanx in the example (vet cat attack = 9, so the phalanx's bonus = 27-9 = 18. Effective defense = 27+18 = 45).

Or, as SG2 would have said, send in a vet ironclad. No city wall bonus, defense drops to 13.5. Ironclad's attack is 6, defense bonus is 7.5, effective defense is 21. Since the ironclad has 30 HP, it should be able to knock the phalanx down to 1 or 2 HP.

	17-01-2005 20:57									#10
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Vive the Super 'Clad

Stu

	17-01-2005 22:57									#11
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quote: Originally posted by DaveV Since the ironclad has 30 HP, it should be able to knock the phalanx down to 1 or 2 HP.

How do you estimate that ?

	17-01-2005 23:24									#12
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I calculate the unit strength by HP times adjusted attack or defense, which yields 180 for the ironclad and 210 for the phalanx. On average, the ironclad should be able to remove 180/210 of the phalanx's strength, or 8.57 HP. This is, of course, an approximation, and one that favors the attacker slightly.

Last edited by DaveV on 17-01-2005 at 23:32

	18-01-2005 03:11									#13
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Thank you.
I usually try to attack with overwhelming strength, which makes that kind of calculations less useful, but you are perfectly right: being able to estimate how much damage a weaker unit will be able to inflict on the strong defender can be vital.

	18-01-2005 03:14									#14
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I find it lovely to define a super ironclad as a "weaker unit"

	19-01-2005 03:51									#15
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BTW dave, what about FP ?
I use it as a multiplier to estimate the modified attack or defence value, when FP>1.
Is that OK ?

	20-01-2005 08:43									#16
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La Fayette, your method will mislead you, because the adjusted strength formula is actually (stronger-plus-[stronger-minus-weaker]) vs weaker. Instead, use FP the same way that Dave used HP, AFTER you determine relative attack vs defense.

	20-01-2005 12:33									#17
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quote: Originally posted by debeest use FP the same way that Dave used HP, AFTER you determine relative attack vs defense.

This is in fact what I do, but I wrote it wrongly.

Thank you for kind help anyway

	23-01-2005 02:16									#18
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I thought you already knew that!

	23-01-2005 03:05									#19
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quote: Originally posted by debeest I thought you already knew that!

Don't overestimate me
I know the formula, but use it very seldom.
Here is what dave wrote:
"I calculate the unit strength by HP times adjusted attack or defense, which yields 180 for the ironclad and 210 for the phalanx. On average, the ironclad should be able to remove 180/210 of the phalanx's strength, or 8.57 HP."
The first sentence is OK. The second sentence is new to me: it brought me some kind of better understanding of the real meaning of the formula.

	23-01-2005 07:45									#20
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So even if it is weaker, it should be able to take down some of the Hit Points of the unit, allowing a follow-on unit to take it out.

Does a "fortified" unit in a city get the x1.5 bonus when a ship attacks if the city has no walls?

	23-01-2005 13:23									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Elephant Does a "fortified" unit in a city get the x1.5 bonus when a ship attacks if the city has no walls?

I think "yes" (but you shouldn't overestimate me ).

	23-01-2005 20:28									#22
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I also 'think' that a fortified unit gets its bonus (of course walls make no difference)

Stu