18-01-2005 23:59									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Redstar i call..no way would that flip..and so fast. All you need are double the units to quell resistors....so i doubt that city had 101 resistors.

Not true. Over at CivFanatics right now a guy has a screenshot of a city he captured where the forces holding the city were at least 4 to 1 in relation to the citizens, and he still had the city flip.

	19-01-2005 00:23									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Willem No, but they will carry the unhappiness of their home city with them to the new one they establish.

I was under the impression from what I've read that the unhappiness migrates to another city immediately rather than waiting to follow the new settler. Can anyone confirm how the mechanism works one way or the other?

	19-01-2005 00:39									#33
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Last time I popped a settler out of a captured city, it came out as that civ for nationality. When did it change?

	19-01-2005 02:16									#34
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It hasn't, vmxa1. In my current game, C3C 1.22, I've popped out several settlers that came out as the foreign nationality.

	19-01-2005 03:37									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Solomwi It hasn't, vmxa1. In my current game, C3C 1.22, I've popped out several settlers that came out as the foreign nationality.

OK, I guess I was wrong about that part. I've never seen that happen myself.

	19-01-2005 03:39									#36
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay I was under the impression from what I've read that the unhappiness migrates to another city immediately rather than waiting to follow the new settler. Can anyone confirm how the mechanism works one way or the other?

No, it travels with the Settler. It wouldn't make sense to just to transfer a city's unhappiness to another one. I believe this came into effect with PTW.

	19-01-2005 03:50									#37
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But this happens with pop rushing. If you pop rush a big city down to 1 citizen, you can click on an unhappy citizen in another city and see the complaint about never forgetting the oppression - even if you'd never pop rushed in that city.

	19-01-2005 10:20									#38
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does conscription cause resentment in the populace as well? for a long while before I could finish building hospitals in all my size 12 cities, I would conscript when the food box was filled and either disband the soldier to add shields to the hospital or use it for bolstering defenses. I'd hate to think that I was making the entire population of the empire permanently less happy by doing that.

	19-01-2005 11:28									#39
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To go back to the original post. The French citizen was destroyed when you took the city. When a player owns a city, new citizens are added to the right. The groupings are foriegn civ on the left and domestic civ on the right. When the city flipped, the single French citizen moved to the right. When you attacked, it was destroyed. People have to die before you take something. All that was left were your citizens. Voila, a French city without any French people.

	19-01-2005 11:31									#40
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Conscription causes unhappiness in the city where you do the drafting. Disbanding the conscript in another city won't hurt happiness in the city where you do the disbanding.

	19-01-2005 11:41									#41
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Regarding settlers, remember that a settler costs two pop points. To the best of what I've noticed, my experience building settlers in captured cities has been that if I have two of my own citizens in the city, those citizens get used and the settler comes out my own nationality. Otherwise, one of the citizens used in forming the settler is foreign and the settler I build comes out foreign.

I might note, however, that a city built using a foreign settler has no foreign culture in it. That helps hold down the risk of flips. (And of course if the settler's home civ is no longer in the game, the risk is eliminated completely.)

	19-01-2005 12:39									#42
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What about cities that spontaneously flip to your side? are they prone to flipping back to the original side in the same manner as a conquered city would?

	19-01-2005 12:40									#43
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Conscription causes unhappiness in the city where you do the drafting. Disbanding the conscript in another city won't hurt happiness in the city where you do the disbanding.

Is the unhappiness caused by the conscription permanent? is it the quivlent of building some sort of a -1 happiness improvment in that city (except that it can't be sold off)?

	19-01-2005 14:32									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo Is the unhappiness caused by the conscription permanent? is it the quivlent of building some sort of a -1 happiness improvment in that city (except that it can't be sold off)?

It causes unhappiness. It wears off after 20 turns (that's what the editor says). Each draft adds it's own unhappiness, so if you do it often, you'll get in trouble.

	19-01-2005 17:21									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo What about cities that spontaneously flip to your side? are they prone to flipping back to the original side in the same manner as a conquered city would?

It can happen. I'm not sure whether I've ever had a city that flipped to me subsequently flip back to an AI, but I know I've had at least a time or two when a city I'd captured flipped out of my control and then flipped back to me later. So the game mechanics clearly do allow such occurrences.

By the way, when cities change hands through peace treaty negotiations or renegotiation, their citizens change citizenship to the receiving civ. So cities obtained in that manner are not vulnerable to flips resulting from having foreign nationals in them.

	19-01-2005 19:56									#46
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Last time I did massive rushing of settlers in foreign territory was in Vanilla.

In that version, when 2 foreign citizens of the same nationality were used, the settler would have that nationality.

With 2 foriegn citizens are different nationalites chosen, the settler would have a barb nationality.

With 1 native citizen & 1 foreign citizen chosen, the settler would have the native nationality.

As for the citizen remembing to be unhappy, nope! [Exception of actually disbanding the unhappy city right after founding a replacement city nearby. Disbanding unhappy cities moves the unhappiness.] But note that if this is going on late in the game you may well over the OCN limit and so any new city you build might start might start with the 1st citizen by default unhappy.

Give Peace a Chance and Stop Attacking the Mother Country are also unviversal.

quote: Originally posted by Willem No, but they will carry the unhappiness of their home city with them to the new one they establish.

	19-01-2005 19:58									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo does conscription cause resentment in the populace as well? for a long while before I could finish building hospitals in all my size 12 cities, I would conscript when the food box was filled and either disband the soldier to add shields to the hospital or use it for bolstering defenses. I'd hate to think that I was making the entire population of the empire permanently less happy by doing that.

Yes, "Hell No, We Won't Go" is draft unhappiness. 20 turns.

Drafting solider and disbanding them for shields is a really bad idea unless you have surplus luxaries and are absoluately positive you won't be at war for 20 turns.

	19-01-2005 20:01									#48
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The chance isn't zero, but unless a weird RNG occured, it's very doubtful that it would flip back. It would still be a good idea to replace the cultural buildings.

quote: Originally posted by Geronimo What about cities that spontaneously flip to your side? are they prone to flipping back to the original side in the same manner as a conquered city would?

	19-01-2005 20:03									#49
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Drafting solider and disbanding them for shields is a really bad idea unless you have surplus luxaries and are absoluately positive you won't be at war for 20 turns.

What does war have to do with this? I thought you get the unhappiness regardless. I do it often, with Infantry, and Mech Infantry, as their shield value is substantial. Even core cities draft some every now and then, if they happen to have surpulus food.

	19-01-2005 23:06									#50
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You get the happiness problems regardless.

But personally, I rather not have my citizens saying both "Give Peace a Chance", and "Hell No, we Won't Go" at the same time because it generally means my luxary slider would have to be set high enough to start reducing science.

quote: Originally posted by Modo44 What does war have to do with this? I thought you get the unhappiness regardless. I do it often, with Infantry, and Mech Infantry, as their shield value is substantial. Even core cities draft some every now and then, if they happen to have surpulus food.

	19-01-2005 23:34									#51
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn You get the happiness problems regardless. But personally, I rather not have my citizens saying both "Give Peace a Chance", and "Hell No, we Won't Go" at the same time because it generally means my luxary slider would have to be set high enough to start reducing science.

Some cities have more happiness improvements than others, and some may be larger than others. Thus, depending on the situation, it may be possible to draft in cities that are smaller and/or that have more happiness improvements without pushing into a situation where it would be necessary to use the luxury slider sooner.

And of course if you're in a government that's immune to war weariness, the whole question of "Give Peace a Chance" is irrelevant.

	19-01-2005 23:47									#52
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Point taken. In epic games, a city must be comfortable with it's happiness situation to draft. Some are, some are not, I agree. But being a builder, I more often run into food problems, rather than happiness problems. Cities with maximum possible production, and nearly zero surpulus food, simply don't have the ability to draft.

I do, however, use heavy drafting in scenarios. Most notably in the Napoleonic Conquest. They have the benefit (and drawback) of too much Irrigation at the start. Cities quickly hit the 12 population mark, wih still lots of spare food, and get drafted from.

	20-01-2005 00:23									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 Cities with maximum possible production, and nearly zero surpulus food, simply don't have the ability to draft.

If cities have any food surplus at all, they can draft when they max out their food box and grow back the following turn. They have to go a very long time between drafts, but occasional drafting is still possible.

	20-01-2005 00:32									#54
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay If cities have any food surplus at all, they can draft when they max out their food box and grow back the following turn. They have to go a very long time between drafts, but occasional drafting is still possible.

Yes, and I use that, thanks to your tip about population being computed before production. But the point is, I often get cities down to 0 surpulus, to maximize production.

	20-01-2005 01:10									#55
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I remember an instance of city flipping when I was still learning the game (so Vanilla CivIII, either unpatched or one of the first couple of patches) that really annoyed me.

A border city (English - how do I remember that?) flipped to me in the medieval era. It was maybe a size6. I built it up for a loooong time. In the late industrial or early modern era, once I'd built darn near all the buildings in it and gotten it up into the teens in pop, the rat bastards flip back to England.

My response, as I recall, was rather irrational. A little while later I nuked the 3 best English cities and sent my Modern Armor over the border.

-Arrian

	20-01-2005 02:12									#56
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Why is that irrational?

	20-01-2005 11:35									#57
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quote: Originally posted by latka To go back to the original post. The French citizen was destroyed when you took the city. When a player owns a city, new citizens are added to the right. The groupings are foriegn civ on the left and domestic civ on the right. When the city flipped, the single French citizen moved to the right. When you attacked, it was destroyed. People have to die before you take something. All that was left were your citizens. Voila, a French city without any French people.

That's how I had it figured, too.

	21-01-2005 23:41									#58
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In one of my first monarch games back in Vanilla, I had a Greek city that was situated among my cities (but fairly close to the Greek mainland) flip to me in the medieval era. Being at that time quite ignorant of the mechanics of flips, I blithely built it up to a metro with all the perks. Centuries later, in the early modern era, it suddenly flipped back to the Greeks.