17-01-2005 21:38									#1
	One culture flip guarantees no future flips Remove this text

...at least in my current game.

I captured Paris which had the Pyramids, Temple of Artemis and the Palace of course. Huge culture city for the French. Well, I starved Paris down to 1 citizen as usual and left a couple Knights outside the city just in case.

Paris grows to size 6. 5 of my (Dutch) citizens and that 1 lone Frenchman.

Sure enough, a couple dozen turns later, Paris flips back to the French. No problem. I'm still at war and my Knights quickly retake Paris. I open up the city window and hey! All the citizens are Dutch! Where did that lonely French guy go?

Then it occurs to me that with all citizens now Dutch plus control of all 21 city tiles (thank you, TOA), there is now NO chance at all for the city to ever flip again!

I thought that when citizens are lost due to war, disease, workers, starvation or whatever, that the "rightmost" citizens always disappeared first. This is the only case I've ever seen where the "leftmost" citizen was lost first. Anyone else ever notice this?

	17-01-2005 22:13									#2
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i can safely say one flip does NOT stop future flips

the best bet against that is to wipe out that civilization asap

---

i don't like the randomness of it either.

	17-01-2005 22:17									#3
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The french citizen was assimilated. There are different rates based on government choice.

quote: Then it occurs to me that with all citizens now Dutch plus control of all 21 city tiles (thank you, TOA), there is now NO chance at all for the city to ever flip again!

Yeah, I think that would be the case. No foreign citizens, no culture pressure... no flip chance.

-Arrian

	17-01-2005 22:30									#4
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my bad..i did not notice you were just talking about one city and its potential to reflip.

	17-01-2005 23:15									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian The french citizen was assimilated. There are different rates based on government choice.

Didn't even know that citizens were assimilated. Learn something new everyday...

	17-01-2005 23:36									#6
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Frenchman was killed as you retook the city: city loses 1 citizen (randomly choosen) each time it is taken. Assimilation occurs only if you held the city more than the original owner or the original owner does not exists anymore.

	17-01-2005 23:38									#7
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Wait a sec... two things don't make sense:

1. The Frenchie couldn't have been assimilated... he caused the flip, and would have still been there when Paris was re-captured. So the original question stands: Where'd he go?

2. What do you mean 21 tiles of cultural space due to the TOA? Captured GWs don't provide culture.

	17-01-2005 23:53									#8
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Theseus: ToA gives a free temple (including the city with ToA) which produces culture.

	18-01-2005 00:26									#9
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Even after TOA is made obsolete, you get to keep all the culture generated, although you do lose the temples of course.

	18-01-2005 02:37									#10
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quote: Frenchman was killed as you retook the city: city loses 1 citizen (randomly choosen) each time it is taken. Assimilation occurs only if you held the city more than the original owner or the original owner does not exists anymore.

Oh, really? I didn't know that assimilation doesn't start until you hold the city a certain length of time. Are you sure about that?

The other bit makes sense - Frenchy died in the re-capture.

-Arrian

	18-01-2005 03:00									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Wait a sec... two things don't make sense: 1. The Frenchie couldn't have been assimilated... he caused the flip, and would have still been there when Paris was re-captured. So the original question stands: Where'd he go?

Foreign nationals aren't the only reason for culture flipping. You can have one of your own cities, with all your own citizens, flip to another civ. It's about culture, not nationality.

	18-01-2005 03:20									#12
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Yes, but there's no chance of a flip at all unless you have either a) foreign citizen(s) and/or b) 1 or more tiles in the city radius under foreign control.

What's confusing to me is what made the French guy go away. Clearly he was the cause of the flip but when I took the city back, he wasn't there. The city didn't even have 1 full turn for him to be assimilated.

	18-01-2005 03:25									#13
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quote: Originally posted by gunkulator What's confusing to me is what made the French guy go away. Clearly he was the cause of the flip but when I took the city back, he wasn't there. The city didn't even have 1 full turn for him to be assimilated.

He was probably destroyed like pvzh mentioned.

	18-01-2005 03:34									#14
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Is it almost impossbile to capture and keep large old cities in civ3? is genocide the only route to conquest? I'd like to know before stating my first campaign of conquest.

	18-01-2005 03:43									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo Is it almost impossbile to capture and keep large old cities in civ3? is genocide the only route to conquest? I'd like to know before stating my first campaign of conquest.

No it's not impossible, but you have be aware of the possibility of a culture flip and act accordingly. First off, don't park all your units in the city if you think there's a chance it will happen. If it does, you'll lose them all. Leave a bunch of them just outside so you can retake the city if necessary.

Secondly, starve the foreign nationals down to just one, then start adding your own. This will kill two birds with one stone so to speak; reduce the chances of a flip and shorten the time the city is resisting.

Third, build your own culture ASAP. the longer the city sits without any, the better the chances of it flipping.

And if you can, try and capture some the cities nearby, even if you know you won't be able to hold them for long. If you can reduce the other civs culture for a little while, while you get yours up and running, you'll improve your chances.

	18-01-2005 03:45									#16
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i find you have to bomb them to at most 15 pop...
then you try to artillary the defenders down to reds.

this way your losses are very few..perhaps just 2 tanks.

But in a pinch you can certainly overrun cities of 25 but at some cost.

and then you usually need double the units as resisters to quell the city.

you can then disband some old unit in the city when it is pacified..to get those happiness things built fast to avoid the flip.

But resources get tied up fast when you have to garrison such a large city...

making workers from it helps..

short answer: yes

but starvation seems to work faster

	18-01-2005 03:48									#17
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it doesn't destroy the units you had in the city when it flips? the enemy gets to use them as their own full strength units? that doesn't really make a lot of sense.

	18-01-2005 03:54									#18
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What I usually do after capturing a city is if pop>1, create a worker first and temple second. I am not sure why but I have stopped all flipping since trying this method. If pop=1, then just build a temple first. worker second.

	18-01-2005 04:43									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo it doesn't destroy the units you had in the city when it flips? the enemy gets to use them as their own full strength units? that doesn't really make a lot of sense.

No, the units get destroyed.

BTW, in addition to the methods to avoid CF mentioned above, you GOTTA try Feudalism and Communism (Fascism too, I guess, but it sorta sucks). There's nothing like poprushing 25 pop metros down to 1-2 pop for Temples, Libraries, Colosseums, and Cathedrals,

	18-01-2005 04:47									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus There's nothing like poprushing 25 pop metros down to 1-2 pop for Temples, Libraries, Colosseums, and Cathedrals,

Giving the finishing touch with a Settler.

	18-01-2005 05:39									#21
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I'm actually wary of poprushing Settlers... don't they come out as foreign citizens?

My preferred finishing touch is a Worker, if you have the captured city at 3pop: let it accumulate 1 shield, poprush at the cost of one citizen, and you're down to 1pop.

	18-01-2005 06:08									#22
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It's based on Culture. If all you've done is build military units and havend been building Temples & Libaries, then yup your better off raizing the cities as you capture them.

Assuming you don't have Vanilla Civ III off the original CD unpatched, military in a city significatnly reduces the risk.

I don't recomend the half your nearby army inside the city / half outside approarch.

Instead I recomend either virtually all inside or alternative just one obsolete unit and a large stack right next door.

The first approarch will bring it out of resistance as quick as possible and minimize the odds of a flip.

The second appraoach minimizes what the defecting civ would possibly get and ensure it's instantly recaptured.

What should be avoided are small to medium stacks inside the cities.

Assmilation is in large part based on culture, but govt also plays a role.

quote: Originally posted by Geronimo Is it almost impossbile to capture and keep large old cities in civ3? is genocide the only route to conquest? I'd like to know before stating my first campaign of conquest.

	18-01-2005 07:12									#23
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn I don't recomend the half your nearby army inside the city / half outside approarch. Instead I recomend either virtually all inside or alternative just one obsolete unit and a large stack right next door. The first approarch will bring it out of resistance as quick as possible and minimize the odds of a flip. The second appraoach minimizes what the defecting civ would possibly get and ensure it's instantly recaptured. What should be avoided are small to medium stacks inside the cities. Assmilation is in large part based on culture, but govt also plays a role.

Be careful about putting in a big garrison (I read of a chap who invaded another continent, put the whole force of 200 units in the first city he captured ... and ... it immediately flipped back! So much for the invasion.).

Obsolete units are good for quelling resistance. If it flips it is not so bad as losing your latest units. (Umh, that conscript warrior found 3,000 years ago and left forgotten somewhere is suddenly useful).

I use small stacks of my least useful units and set everyone to entertainer and resistance stops in 1 to 4 turns at most (usually two) because I do not want to risk losing too many good units. It is very unusual to lose the city.

	18-01-2005 16:01									#24
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"Be careful about putting in a big garrison (I read of a chap who invaded another continent, put the whole force of 200 units in the first city he captured ... and ... it immediately flipped back! So much for the invasion.)."

i call..no way would that flip..and so fast. All you need are double the units to quell resistors....so i doubt that city had 101 resistors. Plus, in my experience, cities never flip while there are resistors. well up to 4 turns anyways.

...at least in original civ 3. I've not played the other yet.

	18-01-2005 19:09									#25
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peterharris:

quote: Be careful about putting in a big garrison (I read of a chap who invaded another continent, put the whole force of 200 units in the first city he captured ... and ... it immediately flipped back! So much for the invasion.).

Hmm. I thought the first turn in which you capture a city was immune to flipping, much like a city rioting won't destroy an improvement on that first turn of the riot.

redstar:

quote: All you need are double the units to quell resistors...

It's a bit more complicated than that but that's a good rule of thumb. I typically move my entire stack into the city to squash resistance on that first turn when (I think) the city can't flip.

quote: Plus, in my experience, cities never flip while there are resistors. well up to 4 turns anyways.

Actually, each resistor counts as 2 foreign citizens for the flip calculation. I always leave the happiness governor on in the city until the resistance is over because quelled resistors typically turn into unhappy citizens. A rioting city is twice as likely to flip.

	18-01-2005 21:47									#26
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quote: Originally posted by peterfharris Be careful about putting in a big garrison (I read of a chap who invaded another continent, put the whole force of 200 units in the first city he captured ... and ... it immediately flipped back! So much for the invasion.).

What version and patch was that under? My understanding is that somewhere along the way (and maybe in more than one step), Firaxis has made it easier to reduce the chance of a flip to zero.

	18-01-2005 22:45									#27
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The chap who had this happen was obviously using Vanilla unpatched.

	18-01-2005 23:49									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo it doesn't destroy the units you had in the city when it flips? the enemy gets to use them as their own full strength units? that doesn't really make a lot of sense.

No, they just disappear. And no it doesn't make any sense. They should have treated it as an uprising, with your units suffering severe losses, not just have them simply vanish into thin air.

	18-01-2005 23:54									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus No, the units get destroyed. BTW, in addition to the methods to avoid CF mentioned above, you GOTTA try Feudalism and Communism (Fascism too, I guess, but it sorta sucks). There's nothing like poprushing 25 pop metros down to 1-2 pop for Temples, Libraries, Colosseums, and Cathedrals,

That's not a course of action I'd recommend. Everytime you pop rush, you're creating unhappiness for 20 turns. With a large city, you may never get them happy again. Poprushing 25 citizens down to 1 would mean about 500 turns with unhappy citizens in that city.

	18-01-2005 23:55									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus I'm actually wary of poprushing Settlers... don't they come out as foreign citizens?

No, but they will carry the unhappiness of their home city with them to the new one they establish.