17-01-2005 23:49									#31
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Those people are idiots. Then again maybe that sentence should be shortened to "People are idiots".

	17-01-2005 23:50									#32
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quote: No, they are there to convert. They are using potential aid as a tool in doing so. If they were there to both help and convert, they would offer aid to anyone who needs it, and paint a good picture of the mythical Christian Values... instead we've seen they're nothing more than inhuman opportunistic bastards.

It's nice that we have a psychic on this board, and that you can see inside their mind to know they don't care at all about the opportunity to help their fellow Christians or people willing to convert.

And bear in mind in their view saving one's soul is much more important then any aid here on Earth.

	17-01-2005 23:50									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Asher How did you hear about it then?

local news broadcast

	17-01-2005 23:54									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi It's nice that we have a psychic on this board, and that you can see inside their mind to know they don't care at all about the opportunity to help their fellow Christians or people willing to convert.

We judge using the only possible evidence-their action. They refused to give aid to those who would not convert- how then is such a judgement off base?

quote: And bear in mind in their view saving one's soul is much more important then any aid here on Earth.

Hard to save souls once they die- maybe it would be more effective to say, give them the aid, then stay to rebuild and then praise Jesus and talk about his soul saving powers.

They didn't do that, did they?

	17-01-2005 23:58									#35
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quote: They are trying to both help and convert at the same time. And in their view, they are doing them a favor by trying to save people from eternal damnation, something to which as missionaries they have dedicated their lives to. And in the process they are trying to deliver aid to some of the people there.

if that's all they were doing, that's fine.

but it seems as if they were refusing to deliver aid if certain conditions were not met--as in, if they didn't convert, they would not receive aid.

i don't see how you can defend that part of the whole sordid affair.

	17-01-2005 23:58									#36
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"I don;t give a **** what you think of anyone here in Poly-that is an irrelevant strawman. The question is, what kind of people are these?"

So the next time someone points out some liberal or European who did something bad, you won't pull out some Conservative or American who did something bad that had nothing to do with the OP and start screaming hypocrite? Good.


"To deny giving aid because of someone's religion is repulsive, no matter how much work you did or did not do in order to discriminate."

How about race? Do you condemn the United Negro College Fund who gives money for college for poor African Americans, but not poor white People?

It's far from ideal to only help people like you, but any help given to needy people is a good thing.

"To attempt to convert people at a time of misery is also morally outrageous."

Again, if you believe that you are trying to help these people get into heaven and avoid damnation, it becomes an act of charity.

"The people who did this are terrible human biengs, regardless on whether anyone on Poly, including yourself, is a worthy human being either."

I never said anyone here wasn't a worthy human being, I try to avoid making those judgements.

	18-01-2005 00:01									#37
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"
We judge using the only possible evidence-their action. They refused to give aid to those who would not convert- how then is such a judgement off base?"

Because you don't know how important the aid distrubting component is to them for the people who they would be distributing it too.

"
Hard to save souls once they die- maybe it would be more effective to say, give them the aid, then stay to rebuild and then praise Jesus and talk about his soul saving powers.

They didn't do that, did they?"

Absolutely, and as I already said I believe they are choosing ineffective means and are doing this the wrong way, but that does not mean that because of their ineffectiveness I view them as bad human beings.

	18-01-2005 00:04									#38
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But obviously these missionaries knew that they were doing something wrong.
Why else should they have left in a hurry as soon as the Reporterteam appeared and started to ask questions?

	18-01-2005 00:05									#39
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Next up, SH defends the selfless work of another unfairly maligned class of people - ambulance chasing lawyers!

	18-01-2005 00:06									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi It's nice that we have a psychic on this board, and that you can see inside their mind to know they don't care at all about the opportunity to help their fellow Christians or people willing to convert.

Um. That much is blatantly obvious if they only help those who will switch to Christianity.

quote: And bear in mind in their view saving one's soul is much more important then any aid here on Earth.

It's still wrong.

A Christian who murders a sinner in an attempt to save his soul is still a murderer...

	18-01-2005 00:08									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi How about race? Do you condemn the United Negro College Fund who gives money for college for poor African Americans, but not poor white People?

Oh, I love the laughable comparisons. If you believe these things are remotely simialr, then you are hopeless.

quote: It's far from ideal to only help people like you, but any help given to needy people is a good thing.

Except they gave NO help to the needy.

quote: Again, if you believe that you are trying to help these people get into heaven and avoid damnation, it becomes an act of charity.

Its an act of Charity to refuse them aid because they won't convert? What a sick an demented idea that is.

	18-01-2005 00:10									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler Shi's hypothetical would be more on point if, after the disaster in American, Hindus would have shown up here offering aid only to those who denounce Christ and His teachings.

Perhaps, but in India the Hindus in government regularly deny aid of various sorts to Christians, blocking building licenses for schools and orphanages, arresting pastors for preaching against the caste system, etc.

How many times have you heard a news story only to find out it's only half the story? I don't know what "ANI" is, and Yahoo doesn't explain or link, but we know there are biased news agencies in many places. (Al Jezeera, anyone?) Hindu nationalism is running very strong these days but it just isn't reported in the West.

Perhaps the nuns were looking for a particular village or community of existing converts for whom the aid had been prepared, and rightly refused to give it to others along the way. We don't know, especially based on a solitary 300 word article.

	18-01-2005 00:11									#43
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I doubt anyone would claim these meat heads represent any meaningful number of Christians or Christian groups. Christian organizations have sent billion to assist in disaster relief and some of you ignore that and instead look at a few dozen meat heads.

At least poly is consistant.

	18-01-2005 00:13									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Because you don't know how important the aid distrubting component is to them for the people who they would be distributing it too.

It rather obvious that getting aid is very important to those who suffered. If giving aid is NOT the primary focus of these people, then don;t go to a disaster area.

quote: Absolutely, and as I already said I believe they are choosing ineffective means and are doing this the wrong way, but that does not mean that because of their ineffectiveness I view them as bad human beings.

Good for you.

	18-01-2005 00:15									#45
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Yes, Oerdin, that too. If one group does something wrong, obviously contrary to the primary tenets represented, everyone knows it. It's no big deal except to the few directly affected.

	18-01-2005 00:16									#46
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The current government of India is controlled by a hardline hindu nationalist party which in the past had anti-muslim and anti-christian elements in its platform.

	18-01-2005 00:16									#47
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quote: I doubt anyone would claim these meat heads represent any meaningful number of Christians or Christian groups. Christian organizations have sent billion to assist in disaster relief and some of you ignore that and instead look at a few dozen meat heads.

oerdin, it's not just poly. go anywhere, post an article or talk about the latest outrages of some group... and people will naturally ignore all the good things they did and talk only of the bad.

want some examples? how 'bout mussolini? (made the trains run on time!) or stalin? (beat back those damn nazis!) or the FBI? (so waco was a mistake... they're out there, busting their asses to protect you every day!)

	18-01-2005 00:17									#48
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"Why else should they have left in a hurry as soon as the Reporterteam appeared and started to ask questions? "

They predicted (correctly) they would get bad press.

"
Um. That much is blatantly obvious if they only help those who will switch to Christianity."

Right, but you don't know they don't care about the "help" part as well as the "Switch to Christianity" part.

"
A Christian who murders a sinner in an attempt to save his soul is still a murderer..."

But they didn't murder or inflict any harm upon them, rather they chose to give their aid to other people.

"Oh, I love the laughable comparisons. If you believe these things are remotely simialr, then you are hopeless."

Except the comparison was on the mark: two groups only giving aid to those like them. And speaking of logical errors, what you have just replied with here is a pure ad hominem.

"

Its an act of Charity to refuse them aid because they won't convert? "

No, it is an act of Charity to attempt to get people to convert.

	18-01-2005 00:19									#49
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quote: They predicted (correctly) they would get bad press.

...

and running away in a hurry wouldn't make people suspicious and give them better press how?

quote: No, it is an act of Charity to attempt to get people to convert.

yes, yes it is. but again, is it an act of charity and kindness to deny physical aid because they're not willing, at the time, to give in to certain conditions?

	18-01-2005 00:21									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The current government of India is controlled by a hardline hindu nationalist party which in the past had anti-muslim and anti-christian elements in its platform.

You mean the current government headed by Dr. Manmohan Singh of the Congress Party?

	18-01-2005 00:23									#51
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quote: No, it is an act of Charity to attempt to get people to convert.

In other news, man puts his old mp3 player on Ebay as an act of Charity in an attempt to get people to give him money!

	18-01-2005 00:23									#52
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Ok, I was mistaken. The Prime Minster who left office last summer, Atal Bihari Vajpayee, was the Hindu Nationalist.

	18-01-2005 00:29									#53
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I thought the way the whole missionary thing worked was that they went in and helped out however they could, to get people to realize how wonderful christianity must be. Convert thru leading by example. Not coercion.

Straybow's rebuttal is the only one that has any merit.

	18-01-2005 00:31									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Theben I thought the way the whole missionary thing worked was that they went in and helped out however they could, to get people to realize how wonderful christianity must be. Convert thru leading by example. Not coercion.

That's the way nearly all of the Christian aid groups do work. These meat heads are the only ones I've heard of not to do it that way.

	18-01-2005 00:42									#55
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Shi's argument can be extended to anyone attempting to judge others, for example SS officers at Auschwitz, suicide bombers or rampaging murderers in Rwanda a decade ago. If we are given an action and asked to give our opinions of it, then we are perfectly free, and in a good position to do.

And I say that their actions stink.

quote: They predicted (correctly) they would get bad press.

If they can't defend actions to other people that says something about their ability to defend it to themselves, unless they have more selfish motivations which is obviously the case. Frankly the "Crusading for souls" attitude in Christianity is shocking.

This said, the Christian aid organisations that have given great sums of money are doing good work, just like all the other charities helping out .

	18-01-2005 00:51									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Donating money pales in comparison to the sacrifice of going all the way over there and leading an aid mission.

But let's get back on subject, eh? We aren't talking about anyone who was leading an aid mission. We're talking about missionaries who're using a disaster as an opportunity to convert people to their faith.

	18-01-2005 00:53									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi And bear in mind in their view saving one's soul is much more important then any aid here on Earth.

Which is why they drove off with their "aid" and left people to die? What good souls they have.

	18-01-2005 00:54									#58
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They'd appear to have a rather unusual concept of Christian compassion, wouldn't they?

	18-01-2005 00:54									#59
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I'm actually going to agree with Ludd

The distance travelled and the effort they go to is irrelevant because the ends to which it is done are clearly appalling. I could run to St. Petersburg and back barefoot with nothing but a can of deodourant and an AK47 to cover my nakedness, but it would count for nothing if it was to no end and no-one knew about it.

	18-01-2005 01:19									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy I'm actually going to agree with Ludd

You agree with me all the time.