18-01-2005 00:38									#1
	Winning on King Get a bigger avatar today!

I kicked butt on Prince, but when I chaged to King, it's a whole different game. The AI seems to give the at least one other civ extradinary advantages. It seems that one civ becomes very strong from the git go. I've tried to build up my civ, avoid wars, go for the Sphinx and Stonehenge wonders. I seem to hold my own for awhile, but that one civ starts to pull away.

I've considered the following:
1. Make sure I have a strong starting position - chose my start tile with care.
2. Go for Sphinx to allow military build up without penalizing production.
3. Go to war with the dominate civ before it gets too strong.
4. Make sure my advances lead to early as possible Gunpowder so that I can get Musketeers and Cannon.

I'm sure that this is an over simplification and suspect the different goals are contradictory to some degree. I'm trying to play King on a huge map with five civs. One of the problems the huge map creates is that the dominate competing civ's location is either unknown or so far away as to make access for war impractical without also having Hullmaking pretty far along.

Any suggestions for a better strategy? I've been using a general strategy created by Gregurabi some years ago, and perhaps a second reading of his strategy may help. I'm getting tired of sucking dust, or for Grampa, eating dirt.

P.S. Maintaining good science seems to also be a factor once past the early stages, but trying to do everything else makes it tough to keep a strong science gain.

Last edited by Neal the Neophyte on 18-01-2005 at 00:45

	18-01-2005 00:47									#2
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

actually, avoidance of war leads to a decent economy and overall success but ifya cant try Calvary..swift response and have a good infrastructure with nice roadworks to respond..just a few hints

additionally come over and play pbem and have some fun and learn a lot

Gramps

	19-01-2005 08:41									#3
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Had a chance to get back into CTP this weekend and playing a self modified King with 25 civs using bloodlust and no pollution for rules.

I found the AI reacts much the same as Neal mentions towards me also.

Instead of (1) civ that races ahead of me....I get up to (4) and sometimes more that leave me eating Gramps dirt with 24 civs to battle with Always at least (2).

I'm new to CTP and still learrrrrrrrrrrrrrning strategies and threads like this help me think of different approaches

Here's what a newbie has noticed........

Simply put....the AI cheats I feel at times.

Example: let's say I'm going for a certain wonder and have 2 turns left to get it. I get the notice that a civ has started the race for it also....wham....next turn....civ so and so wins the race for the wonder. That's building a wonder in (ONE) turn....hmmm. Ties have always gone to the AI civ too....hmmm.

The AI in most cases uses team play against me in regards to wonders. What I mean here is....of the 25 civs, the wonders are divided up amongst the stronger of the 25. No one civ will take (ALL) the civs.

So I started to take notice of what wonders the AI feels is important to it and what it leaves behind as second choices that I can exploit first. Before it has the time to get to the second choices.

The first I noticed was the Forbidden City of the first round wonders. Exploiting the strengths of this wonder allowed me to concentrate on infrastructure and city improvements as fast as I could untill it became obsolete without war threatening all the time by the AI civs. This saved me having to concentrate on my military over infrastructure cost and time. A large happy population then brings me a fast developing military

There are other wonders the AI considers second choices as the ages move along too.

Another thing I noticed was to keep myself lower on the ranking pecking order. I stay just below the big boys. The AI civs attitude is better towards me this way....and they leave me alone pretty much as I keep building my infrastructure. Threats and incursions now and then but as a whole....no major acts of war. They are happy(AI civs) and my population is happy which brings faster production. As time moves along....I'm ready to make my move on the bad guys with an infrastructure that can create large armies quickly and take their turf. Ranking makes no difference at this point....the AI civs all hate me now

Oh....one of the first things I noticed was that the AI plays a very good strategy....TACTICS....is it's weakness. As with almost every pc game I've ever played. The AI has very weak tactics militarily. If I can play a defensive strategy untill I am strong enough....I know I can beat the AI thru tactics playing bloodlust.

Just a few things I noticed and wanted to throw them in.

When I know more of how this great game works....then it's a challenge to Gramps....getting close Gramps

	19-01-2005 10:24									#4
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

25 civs! Gosh, I got whipped with only 5!

I like the Forbidden city bit. I've been going for Sphinx and Stonhenge. Stonehenge gave me 25% additional food and Sphinx allowed me to stay at War status without losing a lot of production. I wanted to be at war status to support taking slaves. I think going for Forbidden City may be a better strategy. You lose both Sphinx and Stonehenge pretty early in the game anyway.

I agree with the AI cheating on Wonders. I thought it odd that as soon as I declared working on a wonder, the big guys jumped right on it. And have you noticed how the AI knows exactly when you leave a city ungarded? And this without Diplomats or Spies yet.

I think I'll also have to pay more attention to Gregurabi's strategy that says you should go for Quantity in units rather than Quality. Build a lot of cheap units instead of just a few good ones.

Even though it is obvious in my current game that I am beat, I'm still playing to see how much I can savage. Currently the dominate civ is roaming around with War Walkers and Plasma vehicles while I'm just getting going with Musketeers and Cannon. Oh well...

So anyway, welcome to probably one of the best strategy games ever produced - with the possible exception of "Harpoon".

Maybe we will be able to gang up on Grampa in the near future.

	20-01-2005 06:59									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by dks Had a chance to get back into CTP this weekend and playing a self modified King with 25 civs using bloodlust and no pollution for rules. I found the AI reacts much the same as Neal mentions towards me also. Instead of (1) civ that races ahead of me....I get up to (4) and sometimes more that leave me eating Gramps dirt with 24 civs to battle with Always at least (2). I'm new to CTP and still learrrrrrrrrrrrrrning strategies and threads like this help me think of different approaches Here's what a newbie has noticed........ Simply put....the AI cheats I feel at times. Example: let's say I'm going for a certain wonder and have 2 turns left to get it. I get the notice that a civ has started the race for it also....wham....next turn....civ so and so wins the race for the wonder. That's building a wonder in (ONE) turn....hmmm. Ties have always gone to the AI civ too....hmmm. The AI in most cases uses team play against me in regards to wonders. What I mean here is....of the 25 civs, the wonders are divided up amongst the stronger of the 25. No one civ will take (ALL) the civs. So I started to take notice of what wonders the AI feels is important to it and what it leaves behind as second choices that I can exploit first. Before it has the time to get to the second choices. The first I noticed was the Forbidden City of the first round wonders. Exploiting the strengths of this wonder allowed me to concentrate on infrastructure and city improvements as fast as I could untill it became obsolete without war threatening all the time by the AI civs. This saved me having to concentrate on my military over infrastructure cost and time. A large happy population then brings me a fast developing military There are other wonders the AI considers second choices as the ages move along too. Another thing I noticed was to keep myself lower on the ranking pecking order. I stay just below the big boys. The AI civs attitude is better towards me this way....and they leave me alone pretty much as I keep building my infrastructure. Threats and incursions now and then but as a whole....no major acts of war. They are happy(AI civs) and my population is happy which brings faster production. As time moves along....I'm ready to make my move on the bad guys with an infrastructure that can create large armies quickly and take their turf. Ranking makes no difference at this point....the AI civs all hate me now Oh....one of the first things I noticed was that the AI plays a very good strategy....TACTICS....is it's weakness. As with almost every pc game I've ever played. The AI has very weak tactics militarily. If I can play a defensive strategy untill I am strong enough....I know I can beat the AI thru tactics playing bloodlust. Just a few things I noticed and wanted to throw them in. When I know more of how this great game works....then it's a challenge to Gramps....getting close Gramps

well..we could play now and you would learn much

I shall guarantee I wont attack ya

	20-01-2005 07:00									#6
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Neal the Neophyte 25 civs! Gosh, I got whipped with only 5! I like the Forbidden city bit. I've been going for Sphinx and Stonhenge. Stonehenge gave me 25% additional food and Sphinx allowed me to stay at War status without losing a lot of production. I wanted to be at war status to support taking slaves. I think going for Forbidden City may be a better strategy. You lose both Sphinx and Stonehenge pretty early in the game anyway. I agree with the AI cheating on Wonders. I thought it odd that as soon as I declared working on a wonder, the big guys jumped right on it. And have you noticed how the AI knows exactly when you leave a city ungarded? And this without Diplomats or Spies yet. I think I'll also have to pay more attention to Gregurabi's strategy that says you should go for Quantity in units rather than Quality. Build a lot of cheap units instead of just a few good ones. Even though it is obvious in my current game that I am beat, I'm still playing to see how much I can savage. Currently the dominate civ is roaming around with War Walkers and Plasma vehicles while I'm just getting going with Musketeers and Cannon. Oh well... So anyway, welcome to probably one of the best strategy games ever produced - with the possible exception of "Harpoon". Maybe we will be able to gang up on Grampa in the near future.

come and get some now..I wont hurt cha

	20-01-2005 08:04									#7
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Hello Neal,

Going to read up on Gregurabi's strategy helps.

I'm still weak on the economic stuff but getting a better handle on it.

Playing King has forced me to pay much more attention on how I manage my cities labor force due to the AI beating me to the wonders like London Exchange almost every time, especially the elusive Edison's Lab.

I still have a real hard time getting the Edison's Lab before the AI gets it....the AI has given me a "you ain't gettin this one bub" attitude everytime.

I'm down to missing it by that ONE turn now more than not. Actually got it last game I played but using a small map with 25 civs. It was a nightmare of survival and carnage in the beginning but not a fair analysis if I'm using better strategies. The AI civs were attacking each other as well as me. There was just no room for anyone without taking the other guy's turf! Allot of fun though

Going to start a new start using the Gigantic map. I found like you, the larger the map, the harder the game play using the Earth World shape map. The AI always places me right in the middle of the bad guys and places the big boys at the north and south ends of the map.

My strategy at start will be: (of course this is subject to sudden changes )

1) Build my capital or best producing city as fast as I can, infrastructure wise for wonders. Try for at least (3) cities for this pourpose.

2) be selective as to which wonders I actually need to help me defeat the bad guys.

3) utilize my labor force of cities better....especially the scientists to speed up science developement.

4) get a better balance of what I actually need for each cities improvements for better science and military build up as an empire whole. Spread the wealth you might say.

5) DON'T PANIC....kiss butt untill I'm ready to go get em!
I have a tendency when the bad guys keep stepping on me to say that's it and go after one civ....this doesn't work. I have to calm down and say, Dean think how good it's going to feel when you anihilate the bumbs and take everything they own

This is getting long so I better cut it short here.

Many thanks for the welcome

I want to try human vs. human too....but....I've learned the hard way playing pbem with another game, is nothing like playing the AI. You can read the AI after awhile....humans are subject to constent surprises.

Gramps I feel is an old hand at CTP and has many tricks up his sleeve

Let me know what works for you and I'll let you know what I'm learning too for our future battle with these tricky human vs human CTP players

	20-01-2005 08:08									#8
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Well Granpa, your picture was certainly reassuring - lovable, peaceful, and non-threating.

You can be sure that I'm going to come after you...and learn. But the learning I want to do is how to win with grace and not how to lose.

	20-01-2005 08:11									#9
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I will say this..and for real works best..settlers settler settler..

build your cities up quickly (maxing # of cities that is)

Thats the key to a quick success

On the bigger cities that can gorw HIGH POP COUNT use as science centers..

those that have a great gold return (goods,jills and mountains) make money cneters

caravans help



Just a few tips

Gramps

	20-01-2005 08:14									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Neal the Neophyte Well Granpa, your picture was certainly reassuring - lovable, peaceful, and non-threating. You can be sure that I'm going to come after you...and learn. But the learning I want to do is how to win with grace and not how to lose.

I am a former Tae Kwon Do Instructor as well as a fighter and loved to fight (I bounced for a living in a strip club for Marines) aand well Biker clubs..

Let me tell you how I became a better fighter..by fighting people better than myself..

That would be my advice to be a better CTP competitor go work in a strip club.. ..no no..I mean to be a better player play against folks whom will teach you

Peace and good luck

Gramps

	20-01-2005 08:19									#11
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Hey Gramps....just posted after you and read your post. They are Great....love your sense of humor

OK....let's start my lessons

I'm limited to this weekend....real busy right now.

I'm limited to the old modem style too. I live out in the country and satellite is my only other option. Later I'm getting satellite.

Let me know how and where to read up on setting up a pbm game with ya

Dean

	20-01-2005 08:24									#12
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by dks Hello Neal, Going to read up on Gregurabi's strategy helps. I'm still weak on the economic stuff but getting a better handle on it. Playing King has forced me to pay much more attention on how I manage my cities labor force due to the AI beating me to the wonders like London Exchange almost every time, especially the elusive Edison's Lab. I still have a real hard time getting the Edison's Lab before the AI gets it....the AI has given me a "you ain't gettin this one bub" attitude everytime. I'm down to missing it by that ONE turn now more than not. Actually got it last game I played but using a small map with 25 civs. It was a nightmare of survival and carnage in the beginning but not a fair analysis if I'm using better strategies. The AI civs were attacking each other as well as me. There was just no room for anyone without taking the other guy's turf! Allot of fun though Going to start a new start using the Gigantic map. I found like you, the larger the map, the harder the game play using the Earth World shape map. The AI always places me right in the middle of the bad guys and places the big boys at the north and south ends of the map. My strategy at start will be: (of course this is subject to sudden changes ) 1) Build my capital or best producing city as fast as I can, infrastructure wise for wonders. Try for at least (3) cities for this pourpose. 2) be selective as to which wonders I actually need to help me defeat the bad guys. 3) utilize my labor force of cities better....especially the scientists to speed up science developement. 4) get a better balance of what I actually need for each cities improvements for better science and military build up as an empire whole. Spread the wealth you might say. 5) DON'T PANIC....kiss butt untill I'm ready to go get em! I have a tendency when the bad guys keep stepping on me to say that's it and go after one civ....this doesn't work. I have to calm down and say, Dean think how good it's going to feel when you anihilate the bumbs and take everything they own This is getting long so I better cut it short here. Many thanks for the welcome I want to try human vs. human too....but....I've learned the hard way playing pbem with another game, is nothing like playing the AI. You can read the AI after awhile....humans are subject to constent surprises. Gramps I feel is an old hand at CTP and has many tricks up his sleeve Let me know what works for you and I'll let you know what I'm learning too for our future battle with these tricky human vs human CTP players

Hey dks, looks like we both posted at just about the same time. I agree with that civ management and restraint is important until you are in a "kick butt" position. I too often, when I got a cease tresspass rejection (with the comment that I'm just a fly on some butt) with a "screw you too" response and attacked the trespasser - and off to war I go!

What the King level is teaching me is that I need to play a lot of attention to planning before I hit the "end" button. Science growth management has not been a strong point, and what I think accounts for the civs pulling away from me as the game progresses.

I'm still playing the lost game, but about to end it and start another King using some of the things we have discussed. I'll keep you posted.

Dont Granpa look positively angelic?

	20-01-2005 08:26									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by dks Hey Gramps....just posted after you and read your post. They are Great....love your sense of humor OK....let's start my lessons I'm limited to this weekend....real busy right now. I'm limited to the old modem style too. I live out in the country and satellite is my only other option. Later I'm getting satellite. Let me know how and where to read up on setting up a pbm game with ya Dean

Ok..my email is BCRONKITE-the necessary sign-then ec-dot-rr-dot-com

drop me an email

what happens is I will set it up

and a thread

we just send an email and attach the turn (it will go to the desktop of your pc)

You should have a folder for saves on your desktop

You play your turn the turn ends
and you will see a message to send it to me

Open up an email message attach the turn and thats how

I allways ask you put the game name and turn number in the subject line so I and you can track

I allways post my turns and you can if you like

we could call it dks a GPT ( as a suggestion)

let me know

looking forward..

any preferences for the game?

Wonders?

Barb level?
Or just let me set up a friendly game?

Gramps

	20-01-2005 08:34									#14
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Grandpa Troll I am a former Tae Kwon Do Instructor as well as a fighter and loved to fight (I bounced for a living in a strip club for Marines) aand well Biker clubs.. Let me tell you how I became a better fighter..by fighting people better than myself.. That would be my advice to be a better CTP competitor go work in a strip club.. ..no no..I mean to be a better player play against folks whom will teach you Peace and good luck Gramps

The posts are really flying tonight. Every time I post and return to the forum I see that a couple more have shown up.

Well Grandpa, interesting background. Uh, you don't know where I live do you?

Seriously though, the other post with hints is helpful - thanks.

	20-01-2005 08:39									#15
	Inflate your Upload Space

Gramps....OK

Got to learn that quote stuff!

Gotta run....din din calls. Get back to ya asap!

You set up the game....still learning at this end. You got da experience and I gots da want. Not too easy though. Been bounced around in life to know that a few knots on the head lets me know I'm still breathing and alive

Dean

	20-01-2005 08:55									#16
	Remove this text

OK Granpa, include me in the PBEM. I assume three humans can play. How big do the files get? I too have only a slow modem.

I have loads of humility and really don't mind demonstrating the depths of my incompetence.

	20-01-2005 17:18									#17
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Hello Neal/Gramps,

Just sent Gramps a mail but wanted to say all right Neal

I've already assumed the position for the first round lessons. Can't say more here but you get the drift.

Going to do a fresh load of CTP with the Act. 1.2 patch.

Gramps....do we need to add the 1.21 hack patch and anything else?

Want to make sure I'm playing with the right files.

Dean