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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:30
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Bk, where are you???
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Mrs. Tuberski
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universal city tx
Jan 2005
time: 23:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Berzerker
Mrs Tuberski
Where did I post odds?
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Okay odds was the wrong term, you said:
quote:
Btw, many women die or are severly injured in botched abortions, so according to your argument, abortion should also be banned. |
How many is many women?
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You dont know who I vote for, but then abortion should be banned and women can have abortions as long as they dont get caught, right? Apply the same standard to this "right" to own one's body? |
I never claimed to know who you voted for, perhaps I should have added that I do not, nor have I, ever voted. Which again, is my choice. Therefore, I have no say in which drugs are legal or illegal
quote:
Then according to Oerdin we shouldn't have the right to pay someone to remove our tonsils. Oh, Oerdin says women who have abortions in "real" clinics do just fine. You might want to ask him about that. |
Wouldn't that be your choice as to wether you paid them to do it or not?
quote:
Who said we should have a right to crash our cars into your family? |
I never said you have the right to crash your car into my family, I said if you did and you are stoned you deserve to be punished.
btw, marijauna is not illegal in all cases. unfortunately you have to have cancer to smoke it in california. those people voted for people that agreed with medicinal marijuana.
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski
how bout the lousy sob forced me to have sex.
The MF left me pregnant and alone with no way to care for my self or this childand plans to have nothing to do with the child
or I was brutally gang raped wouldnt those be qualifing reasons |
I do indeed think they would be.
I was of course being sarcastic- the way abortion is routinely portrayed by some people is that the woman is simply filling in time between a beauty salon appointment and a bridge tournament.
I seem to recall His Crassness the Pope urging Bosnian and Croat victims of war rapes to just carry on and bear the foetus to full term. After all, they were only raped, for goodness' sake, what's nine months' reminder of recent brutality in the larger scale of human suffering?
Last edited by molly bloom on 19-01-2005 at 16:07
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beingofone
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U.S.A.
Apr 2003
time: 05:30
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David Floyd
quote:
The question is whether or not the fetus's "right to life" supercedes all other rights of the mother - that is, the mother is legally obligated to give birth, whether she wants to or not, regardless of the situation.
Accepting a hierarchy of rights is going to leave you with limited individual liberty if you take it to the logical conclusion. |
Oerdin
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And there's always the fact that fetuses under a certain age aren't alive at all |
In 1848 the United States Supreme Court in the Dred Scott Act ruled that a black man was not a human being.
Do you agree with this ruling?
Ah maybe the Supreme Court can be wrong. Who is the one who decides what is morally right and wrong?
So according to the logic that has been posted.
How dare persons of "another" color stifle my right to own them. If I accept a " hierarchy of rights" my right to own slaves will be infringed.
And there`s always the fact that they aren`t really alive and have souls like ordinary people.
David Floyd
quote:
Now hold on a second - you aren't "killing your child", you are simply deciding that the fetus/child can no longer use your body. Let's look at it this way - if you agree to allow your body to be hooked up to a machine in order to sustain someone's else's life, does it become murder if you change your mind and take yourself off the machine?
Obviously, it does not - that person doesn't have a moral claim to your body. His right to life is irrelevant - it's not a factor because you are not violating it. |
So I should think like this?
You are breathing air that I could be using. You are eating food and drinking water that my body needs. In fact you are taking up way to much space, so you have to go away.
Especially if you threaten my job position because you will be taking away my right to sustain my family and my body etc.
David Floyd
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Childbirth still CAN be more dangerous to the mother than abortion. |
That is why we did away with childbirth thousands of years ago. It was much to dangerous to propagate human life.
David Floyd
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As an "unborn child", I don't even know what the hell we're talking about. Even as a 3 year old, I have no concept of death - you are projecting adult ideas and reactions onto a being that has no capacity for those ideas and reactions. |
Ok let me ask all you full grown "adults" out there somewhere.
Does your life have meaning? I mean do you have hopes, dreams ambitions? Do you have value?
Then would it have been OK if your mother had aborted you?
If the answer is yes then just simply drop your head below water and take a deep breath.
Urban Ranger
quote:
There should be a choice in deciding whether or not to have a baby. |
Sava
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Coming from someone who knows nothing about what it's like to give birth to a child. IMO, men should not even have a say in the matter of abortion. |
There should be a choice. The only two children I would have had in this world were aborted and without my consent. I have no children now. They are gone.
I saw what the abortions did to the mental health of this woman. So don`t tell me there is " no danger" in abortions. It leaves women and men emotionally void and at times crippled.
This world has made the most precious of all gifts, LIFE cheap and disposable.
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:30
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quote:
Originally posted by beingofone
I saw what the abortions did to the mental health of this woman. So don`t tell me there is " no danger" in abortions. It leaves women and men emotionally void and at times crippled. |
If a huge segment of society (including major politicians and your faith) told you that eating meat was a sin, made you a horrible person, was murder, etc. and then you went and ate some meat, and afterwards felt horrible about it, it is the act of eating meat that caused you to have problems, or societal opprobrium.
People like you create a hostile environment, then claim the effects of your actions justify your actions. If people like you didn't call abortion murder, didn't make women feel like murderers for having them, etc., there would be no mental health problem's associated with abortion.
Also, you completely ignore the mental health problems with becoming a mother who is incapable of providing a suitable life for herself or her child as a result of having that child. Child abuse, neglect, depression, PPD, etc., are all very common results of having hcildren when you aren't emotionally, physically, and or financially ready for children.
You people are evil incarnate.
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Boris Godunov
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Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
There's also the possibility of adoption, if reproduction isn't an option anymore. |
True. If one is so keen on having children, why not adopt? I have to wonder about the motivations for having children if this option is distasteful to them. Do they really want to share their love with a family, or are they just intent on passing on their genes?
In fact, if he was so intent on having children AND he abhors abortion so much...why not seek out a pregnant woman who is considering abortion and offer to adopt her child? Seems to me if one abhors the practice and thinks life is so precious, one should be willing to go this route to "save a child."
There is a crisis in the US wrt adoption. Not enough people are willing to do it (and social conservatives seem intent on barring many people willing to do it out of sheer bigotry). So instead of knocking up women who don't really want to have kids, why not go out and find some kids already here in need of a loving home?
I bet if the country's foster care situation weren't so dire, a few more women who would have had abortions would consider carrying a fetus to term and putting it up for adoption.
Last edited by Boris Godunov on 19-01-2005 at 21:37
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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:30
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quote:
Originally posted by beingofone
would it have been OK if your mother had aborted you? |
Yes. (speaking for myself and not Floyd)
quote:
If the answer is yes then just simply drop your head below water and take a deep breath. |
Why so? I don't remember having had any hopes, plans or values back when I was an embryo (when abortion could have been an issue). What I am today is completely different to what I was a few weeks after conception.
I have absolutely no more willingness to destroy my life than to destroy, say, my uni paper in its current state. Back when my uni paper was a mere project, I'd have no problem with aborting it or postponing it. The difference between then and now is that I created something. Unlike the embryo I once was, I now have values, desires, feelings, and merely conciousness. Unlike the vague project it once was, my paper is now backed with research and actual writing. That's why it is much more worth keeüing it now, than it was in the past.
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beingofone
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U.S.A.
Apr 2003
time: 05:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Strawman. Nobody asserted there was "no danger" in abortions. Why are you using quotation marks for something nobody said?
quote:
Childbirth still CAN be more dangerous to the mother than abortion. |
Of course there is danger and potential adverse effects from aborion--there are such risks with ANY medical procedure. There is a danger even from getting an ingrown toenail removed. |
I am talking about emotional health. Do you think it is natural for a mother to kill her offspring?
quote:
The argument that abortion can be physically or psychologically harmful is a fruitless one, because in the end, so can carrying a fetus to term and delivering it. We have scads of documented effects of adverse health effects from pregnancies, up to death and psychosis. How many women have died in childbirth as opposed to those who have died on abortion clinic tables? Need I mention Andrea Yates to demonstrate how giving birth can lead to psychological trauma? |
I notice you just choose to ignore what I said. That is why we should do away with childbirth.
quote:
So citing the adverse health potential of abortions as an argument against it is a flawed argument, since one can easily show how delivering a baby can be just as potentially harmful. |
Oh of course not - it is perfectly OK to kill are unborn children. It is in our best interest.
quote:
I'm sorry for your anguish over this. But think about the alternative: you coercing a woman who didn't want to carry the fetuses into doing so against her will. How is that right? Were you going to take full responsibility for the kids when born? If the woman happened to die or be seriously crippled as a result of childbirth, could we have made you accept responsibililty for her death? |
You fail to acknowledge the fact that the abortions are what crippled her.
Yes I was going to take full responsibilty for the children.
And me being a father actually having the audacity to think I have a say in the matter.
Like I said we sould do away with childbirth to protect the rights of all women against the tyranny of the fetus and the inherent danger of keeping our species in existence
quote:
You could find another woman who was willing to have children and sire much progeny with her. |
Do you people actually believe I have not considered this and adoption? I experienced this.
chegitz guevara
quote:
If a huge segment of society (including major politicians and your faith) told you that eating meat was a sin, made you a horrible person, was murder, etc. and then you went and ate some meat, and afterwards felt horrible about it, it is the act of eating meat that caused you to have problems, or societal opprobrium.
People like you create a hostile environment, then claim the effects of your actions justify your actions. If people like you didn't call abortion murder, didn't make women feel like murderers for having them, etc., there would be no mental health problem's associated with abortion.
You people are evil incarnate |
How about eating your children - the monsters that dare make you feel guilty about that.
I am evil? Maybe I am your heart crying out to you for sanity.
Urban Ranger
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Unless you don't eat, you are involved in the destruction of life.
Of course, you may be talking about human life. The only thing that set us apart from other species is our sentience. Foetuses don't have sentience, hence, they aren't human beings. |
Are you saying there is no difference between you and say - a head of cabbage?
Are you sentient now? Then maybe you could tell me the exact moment you became sentient so that we can truly know when life begins.
Spiffor
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Yes. (speaking for myself and not Floyd) |
You cannot see your own circular reasoning.
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That's why it is much more worth keeüing it now, than it was in the past. |
At what point did your life become valuable? Yesterday or the day before?
And if it has no value then why are you posting here?
Why don`t you "great thinkers" reply to the lions share of what I said, instead of picking out what you think you can pick apart.
Try actually being honest with oneself would be a huge leap in the progress of mankind as a whole.
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beingofone
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U.S.A.
Apr 2003
time: 05:30
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quote:
Foetuses don't have sentience, hence, they aren't human beings. |
OK- at what point did you become a sentient human being. Could you tell us the exact moment in time?
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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:30
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quote:
Originally posted by beingofone
You cannot see your own circular reasoning. |
I don't understand how the following statement "it would have been OK if my mother had aborted me" is circular reasoning. Please explain.
quote:
At what point did your life become valuable? Yesterday or the day before? |
When I developed a survival instinct, i.e. an active willingness to save my life, that comes along a nervous system. At about 3-4 monthes in the womb.
quote:
And if it has no value then why are you posting here? |
As I said, I value my life now - In fact I have valued it as soon as I developed a survival instinct along with my nervous system.
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Why don`t you "great thinkers" reply to the lions share of what I said, instead of picking out what you think you can pick apart. |
Be aware that it is a common debating practice here, for people only to respond to the particular topics that interest them. Boris answered to your anguish at not having children, I responded on the "meaning of life" aspect of your post, etc. Such behavious is something to be expected on this forum, where people came for entertainment and not for work. As far as I know, only Berzerker can sustain a debate where he adresses each and every line of text written by the others. And trust me, it grows tiring very quickly 
However, here are my answers to your arguments in your "A Perspective" post.
So, let's see, your arguments in general are:
1. How can we decide what is human and what is not?
2. The argument that the mother should decide, because the fetus is a parasite of her body, is moot.
3. The meaing of an individual's life
4. Men should have a choice too.
5. The danger of abortion to the mother.
6. "This world has made the most precious of all gifts, LIFE cheap and disposable."
Please tell me if I missed anything.
Wrt 1: The only way we can decide precisely what is human and what is not, is to have a collective agreement of what humanity entails. Science offers such an agreeable measure, with the barrier of species: a human can reproduce with another human to make a reproducible individual. Law offers another definition: a human has rights once it's born. Tradition offers yet another definition: in many traditional socieities, a human had no rights until well after birth, and infanticide was common.
The law's job is to offer rules that improve society while caring for individual rights. The law should thus have in mind the social implications of abortion, and not some sense of morals or another.
To put it simply, an abortion ban favors the appearance of back-alley abortionists whose practices are very dangerous to the health of the mother, it also favors the emergence of a population of unwanted children who won't have a caring or stable environment to grow up in. It'll wreck their lives, as much as their environment's. The law shouldn't favor such an obvious cause of criminal or deviant behaviours, as well as utter misery. It would be against individual rights to forbid people to have children, or to force them to have abortions. However, it is completely consistent with individual rights to offer the choice to do it.
The law differs from country to country when it comes to abortion. The US allows abortion on-demand until birth. Most European countries allow abortion on-demand until the third or fourth month. Many countries ban abortion outright. These different definitions come in part from the delicate balance between thhuman rights of the unborn child, and the social implications of unwanted birth.
2. I agree the argument is bunk.
3. This is the point I adressed
4. I agree men should have a choice. I consider that both should be able to decide whether there will be an abortion. If one adamantly wants the child, however, there should be a legal arrangement for the child to be born and to be taken care of exclusively by the willing parent. If the willing parent is the father, he should compensate all ill side effects that come with the pregnancy (delayed studies, missed career opportunities, plus of course the stress of undergoing an unwanted and painful period of life)
5. Abortions can be dangerous to the woman's mental health, and repeated abortions can have ill side-effects on a woman's reproducive ability. True. But these side effects are dwarfed by the ills that can happen with an unwanted pregnancy. Your argument is bunk, as it is akin to banning all medicine because of its occasional side effects.
6. Life has always been cheap and disposable. Even if you focus on human life, it has always known mass slaughters during wars, and it has always known infanticide. Not to mention death penalty, making labourers work to death, etc.
Abortion brings absolutely nothing new in that regard.
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19-01-2005 10:01
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