24-01-2005 13:07									#151
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Whaleboy

quote: WTF are you on about? What does "our" lives have to do with others, and do you think there is a conflict between the two? Do you our ability to draw a line and answer the question, or even that the question is relevant to the debate?

Oh I am sorry. I did not realize that you could not infer logical conclusions of your own statements. Perhaps I could post your own statements as well as my response to help you keep up.

Your statement

quote: You keep referring to foetuses as children but consistently fail to qualify that... why should we regard a foetus as a child

Part of my reply to help you focus

quote: It's a reasonable supposition if ever there was such a thing to believe you were a fetus at one time. Or could I be reaching and grasping for logic and reason here?

Mrs. Tuberski

quote: To be right on, there is no accurate record of when life begins, only when it ends.

Honesty - what a breath of fresh air THANK YOU.

quote: if the parents cant agree then to the mother since she is the one who has to carry the child for nine months and undego the birth of the child.

Yes it is a child - so are parents obligated morally to raise and care for the child?

quote: The fetus actually lives in a sac of fluid so how would you tell tears from the amniotic fluid.

After the abortion had occured and it was quivering like a newborn does when they cry.


chegitz guevara

quote: The question then is, at what point do we say that human tissue becomes an human being?

This is not a "new" question at all.
The ancient Greeks disposed of their children quite often. The Spartan culture would present the newborn before a tribunal and the city elders would decide. If the child met certain requirements it survived.
The ancient Near East nations, as part of most religions would sacrafice their children by burning in fire or hanging on the wall of the city.
This was all done for " the betterment of the society" or in the case of Athenians the career and financial status of the parents and family.
It all seemed rational and perfectly accepted behaviour.

Now we can look at this and say " how barbaric". Maybe in the future people will look back at our society and say " Do you believe they aborted their own children - how barbaric."

Whaleboy

quote: If you want to find a solution to the abortion problem, I suggest you devote some energies to asking yourself the question "What is human life", and then work up from there.

Ah - more honesty THANK YOU. Hey you can cause me to think very hard about important issues when you aren`t just railing at me .

	24-01-2005 15:13									#152
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quote: Oh I am sorry. I did not realize that you could not infer logical conclusions of your own statements. Perhaps I could post your own statements as well as my response to help you keep up.

I have previously addressed why a foetus is not a child, at conception it is a lifeform yet I think we can agree that at birth it is human. That we were all once solely lifeforms makes no statement or inference about us as conscious beings, except to say that we are still biological life, but unless that's an insufficient objection to termination it's saying nothing, so I reiterate my original point.

quote: Yes it is a child - so are parents obligated morally to raise and care for the child?

Semantics. For the point that was being made, foetus is the more accurate description, and the whole point of this is to argue a foetus-child distinction, or conversely to refute their being equalised.

quote: This is not a "new" question at all. The ancient Greeks disposed of their children quite often. The Spartan culture would present the newborn before a tribunal and the city elders would decide. If the child met certain requirements it survived. The ancient Near East nations, as part of most religions would sacrafice their children by burning in fire or hanging on the wall of the city. This was all done for " the betterment of the society" or in the case of Athenians the career and financial status of the parents and family. It all seemed rational and perfectly accepted behaviour. Now we can look at this and say " how barbaric". Maybe in the future people will look back at our society and say " Do you believe they aborted their own children - how barbaric."

AGAIN! You fudge the question by supposing that foetus = child, where that is the very point up for discussion, so all you are really doing is attempting to drown us in a spurious knowledge of Greek history. In the case of the Athenians the matter was largely left up to the parents, I think you refer more to the Macedonians.

quote: Ah - more honesty THANK YOU. Hey you can cause me to think very hard about important issues when you aren`t just railing at me

Awww! I've given someone a persecution complex! *tear to the eye*

	24-01-2005 15:36									#153
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi What are these inherent differences? How does this justify our current lack of knowledge of the entirety of complications surrounding abortion? We have had 50 years to study legal abortion, and why is it that deaths are still not reported in the US with the same scrutiny as those deaths in childbirth? Why does this supposed right to privacy supercede the scrutiny society demands of all other surgical procedures? I am not talking about revealing names or patient histories. Rather, I am looking for accurate medical data as is found in civilised countries like Finland. How do we know that abortions take place in a sterile environment in the clinics?

I wish, I wish, I wish, that you could stop making so many value laden assertions and assumptions.

How do we know abortions take place in a sterile environment?

Are you serious?

Do you think regulated abortion clinics are akin to 'Joe's Carcrash Clinic' with unwashed nurses and doctors dropping cigarette ash into open incisions?


Perhaps you imagine that instead of using forceps they utilise a set of rusty gardening implements nicely clogged up with rich mulch and writhing insect forms....

	24-01-2005 23:16									#154
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quote: Originally posted by beingofone Yes it is a child - so are parents obligated morally to raise and care for the child?

I answered that didnt I MY morals will differ from yours and yours from anybody else. There is no answer to that question that will sastify everyone. For me The answer would be Yes if I could raise and support the child properly and no If i couldnt do so. Adoption is a no for me since the mental anguish of having the child and giving it away would break my heart to much taking me to a point were i wouldnt be able to do it and end up raising a child that i cant afford or even ready to deal with. Having an abortion doesnt make me immoral or unethical since I believe in doing what is best as a whole. Just as having my tubes tied after my third child didnt make me uncatholic even though i used birth control method that catholics dont like.

quote: After the abortion had occured and it was quivering like a newborn does when they cry.

Dont take this nasty please. Have you ever witnessed an abortion? Most abortions that include a fully formed person or close to that is a late term one which are rarely done since those i believe are not allowed ( I could be wrong ) unless the child is malformed and has 0 to little life expentancy. In these cases where the product of conception is formed and has to be delivered the child is delivered stillborn their is no movement whats so ever. It does not cry. In other cases the product of conception is removed as alot of blood tissue and mucus. I do not nor have i ever worked in an abortion clinic as a nurse however i have in surgery and performed the d an c procedure (which is done on women who have a spontanous miscarriage) and seen the resluts of that, which is the same as the results of an early term abortion. I have done late term delieveries on dead children in the womb and have never seen a tear or movement of anykind.