19-01-2005 20:59									#1
	Arty at Deity Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Hiya fellow civers. I have a query. I find I can win (SS, diplo) on huge archipiélago Deity maps without using much artys. But I'm afraid I just don't make it on time in huge pangaea maps.

My question is: are you guys able to win conquering on Deity huge pangaea maps without resolving to use huge SoD artys (100 plus) to run around à la Moonsinger ?

	19-01-2005 21:25									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I never play Huge maps.

Have you tried Nukes?

	19-01-2005 21:38									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

No, I haven't tried them.

I was only wondering If there was some other way to beat Deity through military Conquest other than making intensive use of huge stacks of artillery every time.

	19-01-2005 21:40									#4
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I never played deity on a huge map of any flavor, only std size. I do not think it should be needed, but you will probably end up with a large number of arties.

I tend to use them as defense against attacks and ship bombardment. I use armies to hammer them after I get calv. I use bombarment units before then to soften them up.

Grab a city and raze it, bring up my artie types and a settler with defenders to found a new city. The AI will leave the armies alone in the open field, if they are still green, sometimes even yellow.

If I have some defender armies, they go into the new city as well to deal with the counter attack (if this is the inital assault). So my SoD is a stack of defense. I want to have the AI kill as many of its units as I can handle in a counter attack. It is easier than killing them all in a city fortified.

Let them drain out much of their troops from those cities so I can have an easier time. The AI loves to send out units to attack, from a city that is already under attack. I have seen so many AI vs AI fights where one could have held a given city, but it sent out most of its defenders to attack.

	19-01-2005 21:47									#5
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Hmm, yes thanks for the replies. It seems cavalry (and Armies of them) with huge stacks of artillery and maybe some infantry for defense purposes is the only way round it.

I was just curious If there might be someone out there who had managed to develop some way to beat the AI at Deity without the arty business.

	19-01-2005 21:47									#6
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Drakan I was only wondering If there was some other way to beat Deity through military Conquest other than making intensive use of huge stacks of artillery every time.

...which is why I mentioned Nukes (as an alternative to artillery).

	19-01-2005 21:48									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Drakan I was just curious If there might be someone out there who had managed to develop some way to beat the AI at Deity without the arty business.

"Some way" like...Nukes?

	19-01-2005 21:52									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Yeah, I catch your drift but I meant other than artillery (and nukes).

	19-01-2005 21:58									#9
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

You've got something against Nukes!??

	19-01-2005 21:58									#10
	Tired of ads?

Yeop

	19-01-2005 22:14									#11
	Remove this text

And artillery?

	19-01-2005 22:22									#12
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

No, nothing against arty really. It's just that, oh well I couldn't be bothered to move huge stacks of them all over the place. Arty is ok, I guess.

	19-01-2005 23:01									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

This is well out of my range of experience, but I'd guess you would need a bundle of arty and armies.

-Arrian

	19-01-2005 23:22									#14
	Increase Your PM Length

Well two things about nukes:

1- you need uranium
2- you need to be late in the game to have the tech

This means you probably can only use it on the last couple of civs. Me I would not launch a nuke unless I have gotten SDI up or it was the only way to stop an immediate loss (SS).

The reason is that I would expect to have fewer nukes than they do and it will trigger everone to declare on me. It could well be that the last item is of no concern as they may all be at war with me anyway at that point.

If you do launch, move all your troops away from your cities.

	20-01-2005 23:20									#15
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I think you need units with withdraw capability, such as knights, cavalry, tanks, modern armor, and some barracks near the front line to keep refreshing two or preferably three army stacks. Of course it helps to have captured Sun Tzu for instant barracks.

But it is very difficult with city sizes over 12 for the added defense. Tanks vs. fortified infantry in a 12 size city is tough going and I hate it when I end up creating a bunch of enemy infantry elites.

I like artillery to take the city size down below 12 and soften those infantry up to let my tanks finish the job. Then starve them down to 3 to 5 size or raze as required.

I forget the key shortcut for selecting an entire stack of the same units. Does anyone remember? That makes dealing with moving 30 artillery or 20 tanks much less monotonous.

Since I prefer to fight on land, I often use the artillery to defend my coastline. Does a great job.

I play standard size, large land mass pangea, partly for game time length and partly because it isn't as hard to bring the war to my neighbors. Strangley, sometimes when I select pangea, I get continents. Not sure if it is a bug or user error.

When this happens and I haven't met 3 or 4 civs by the middle ages, I send my explorer boats out to find them. A few sink, but when one makes it, the pay off is huge. Well worth the cost of losing several boats. Plus it's fun to guess where the shortest route is.

So, I guess my answer would be that it is possible to not use artillery and win, but I would still use them on any city 12 or over, if they have enemy infantry to my tanks. With a lopsided match up, of course it can be done, such as rifleman vs. tanks. Or rifleman vs. cavalry with city size under 12 or better under 6.

But I don't think I've ever won at deity without using a REX or ICS strategy of some sort.

	20-01-2005 23:37									#16
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Bombers?

	21-01-2005 00:46									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Drakan I take it that it would be allowed to use minimal numbers of artillary or bombers for the purpose of your quest?

I am guessing that using lots of bombers is no different that using an artie stack?

	21-01-2005 15:27									#18
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Yes, Vmxa, bombers with lethal bombard are almost as good, providing they are not shot down. The problem is that If the AI's make it to bombers they bomb my Armies which have my SoD beneath them and I'm a gonner after that. So I try to finish them off beforehand or else win through SS instead.

I guess I'll just have to get used to moving à la Moonsinger huge stacks of arty's all over the screen. It's just such a pain in the .... Thanks anyway for all the feedback.

	21-01-2005 21:27									#19
	Got spare money?

I was trying to get the parameters and maybe take a shot at the game after I finish my current game. I will probably run out of time and have to win histograph today. It is a conquest only and I have had trouble putting civs out of the game.

The main research civs have shot themselves in the foot with max units and no workers. The USA was the tech leader, but now has so many tiles covered with pollution it has fallen back.

DC was so bad that when they started the Shakespears (long after the ToE race) it would take them 14 turn and my prebuild did it in one (not even my second best city).

This could be my first game where I did not trigger a GA, other than losing games.

So no large uses of art types and bombers on offense, is that about it on a huge pangea at deity, right?

	21-01-2005 22:45									#20
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: I forget the key shortcut for selecting an entire stack of the same units. Does anyone remember? That makes dealing with moving 30 artillery or 20 tanks much less monotonous.

CTRL-X, CTRL-J, or the right-hand stack-move button.

	22-01-2005 03:58									#21
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus quote: I forget the key shortcut for selecting an entire stack of the same units. Does anyone remember? That makes dealing with moving 30 artillery or 20 tanks much less monotonous. CTRL-X, CTRL-J, or the right-hand stack-move button.

Thanks, You just freed up about 40 hours of game time for me.

	22-01-2005 22:47									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I haven't played any Huge/Pangaea games in C3C, but in Civ/PtW it was possible to use Horses, Knights, and Cavalry to get near the Domination limit and then finish things off with Tanks (or MA). No bombardment necessary. In C3C it should work better because of the advantage Armies give the player.

	27-01-2005 10:50									#23
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Well, I haven't done that situation yet, but in situations were I have to conquer a lot of land without arty (for example, on another continent where I was mostly using airports to send my guys over, so it was basically all tanks/mech infantry), I've found the most effective way to take a metropolises without arty is to simply pillage all the tiles in the city radius, then keep going with most of my army towards easier targets, just leaving a few units there to keep an eye on the situation, then come back to finish the job after the city has starved itself down to 6 people or so, losing the insane defense bonuses they otherwise get. It doesn’t usually take long (besides the loss of food from losing irrigated land and railroads, the AI also seems to make a bunch of people into entertainers once you cut off the luxuries, which makes it starve even faster) and with all resources cut off the city usually just spends the time making longbows or something silly like that.

	28-01-2005 04:48									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

That is so cruel. I like it.

I think the armies that Aeson mentions works well. Come to think of it, I think I learned about using armies from him.

The previous game I had, I was militaristic (German), and so it just seemed to be one of those games with many GLs generated. Plus I built all of the small wonders (Heroic Epic, Military Academy, Pentagon) to go with cranking out armies. On a standard size Pangea map I had 13-14 armies by end game. But there is the need to keep refreshing armies in barracks to avoid losing them. I can imagine on a huge Pangea map, you could end up with 30 armies? I only played 1 or 2 huge map games.

	28-01-2005 05:46									#25
	Increase Your PM Length

I forget the number, but SirPleb ran scores of armies in one of his games. I tend to use up to 2 dozen at any one point in time.

Scrapping older ones to rush things and replacing them with new ones. It depends on how many cities I have. I had 23 when I finished my last one, so that takes over 90 cities.

	01-02-2005 19:38									#26
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Those are insane numbers... 20+ armies! Seems tedious to play on huge worlds with many civs when you think about the numbers like this. I'll stick to smaller worlds for the time being.

	01-02-2005 21:19									#27
	Got spare money?

Nay 20 or so is not insane, 80 or so is insane.

	01-02-2005 21:58									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Yeah in Bamspeedy's : "Beyond Sid" I think he achieved 110 MGL's and he made like 80 Armies or so...loco loco loco

	01-02-2005 23:42									#29
	Inflate your Upload Space

Well I guess you could get up to 128 armies, with 512 cities, but I do not want to find out.

80 is over 320 cities and that is too many for me. Bam's game was insane.

Sorry for the thread jack.