20-01-2005 01:04									#1
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Some woker jobs consume wokers:
* colonies
* outposts
* radar towers
* airfields

Colonies are hardcoded, however others are not, and AI loves radar towers.

To change that we need to assign number more than 1 to the cost of building it, so tile improvement will be built the same way as road/mine/irrigation.

Since AI is in love with radar towers and not very good at keeping healthy number of workers, we might help it by assigning the cost of a road or a mine (tops) to it. Even if AI workers has nothing to do, just joining them in to city is a better option for AI than wasting a worker on radar tower.

We could "fix" outposts/airfields the same way since they have very little if any use as it now, but I doubt that AI will use either of these.

	20-01-2005 02:17									#2
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One question. Won't the AI try to build Radar Towers everywhere, when it is allowed to? Wouldn't such behaviour actually hurt it?

	20-01-2005 02:34									#3
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I think AI builds radar towers in OCP-like pattern since they provide bonus of 2-tile radius including diagonal.

	20-01-2005 03:16									#4
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I think this is definitely something that needs tested to see what happens before we make a decision.

By the way, this is not a change that would work entirely in AIs' favor. Under the standard rules, I'm reluctant to build radar towers of my own (in what few games last that long) because doing so costs workers. But if my pollution clean-up crews could build radar towers in their spare time, I would very likely build them all along my borders in peacetime, and I'd also look for opportunities where cultural borders are shallow enough to use them to support offensive operations when I'm at war.

Last edited by nbarclay on 20-01-2005 at 14:48

	20-01-2005 03:24									#5
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I used foreign slaves for Radar Towers in Conquests 1.0

In 1.22, I'm bypassing the tech allowing them competely.

	20-01-2005 14:14									#6
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if a change means the AI is not as heavily penalised (might build radar rather than something else?), it is not much of a penalty if it encourages us to use something which is underused.

There will be a benefit to us, but I would imagine the use of artillery is significantly greater, both in defence and of course in offence.

	20-01-2005 14:39									#7
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay By the way, this is not a change that would work entirely in AIs' favor. Under the standard rules, I'm reluctant to build radar towers of my own (in what few games last thatt long) because doing so costs workers. But if my pollution clean-up crews could build radar towers in their spare time, I would very likely build them all along my borders in peacetime, and I'd also look for opportunities where cultural borders are shallow enough to use them to support offensive operations when I'm at war.

Yes, this would give the player a new option, that wasn't really there when Radar Towers cost Workers. Well, it was, but in games already won. But the thing is, the AI has very static defenses, so Radar Towers mean much more to them, than to a human. So overall, I would see this change as one favoring the AI, even if not by a large margin.

And I agree it needs testing. We don't really know what the AI will do, if presented with something very different than what it was programmed for.

	28-01-2005 00:39									#8
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I like the idea.The lack of workers is a serious AI flaw and radar towers consuming workers makes it worse.
It surely will make the human players build radar towers, too...but I view that as positive (balance to decrease costs of a structure which is currently neclected by the human player) and in the "worst" case (in terms of helping the human player), we will end up with both sides having a net of radar towers (for me the AI is not so bad in placing its towers).

Of course testing is needed to see if it alters AI behaviour; I will mod this in my next game and post my observations here.

	28-01-2005 00:46									#9
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I really think this Radar Tower issue has been mute since 1.22.

Sure, in 1.0, Radar Towers were in the required Radio tech.

But now it's in the Advanced Flight tech, why bother ever reseraching that tech.

	28-01-2005 00:59									#10
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn I really think this Radar Tower issue has been mute since 1.22. Sure, in 1.0, Radar Towers were in the required Radio tech. But now it's in the Advanced Flight tech, why bother ever reseraching that tech.

Yes, that might be true, but IMO it would be another reason to include this change - if the human player still don't build them, it will just help the AI with its worker problem.

	04-02-2005 04:54									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Pfeffersack Yes, that might be true, but IMO it would be another reason to include this change - if the human player still don't build them, it will just help the AI with its worker problem.

Well, I like Helicopters, for one thing. With the AU changes to allow lots of other units to be air lifted, I have used them a lot. Since I'm one of those "builder" types, most of my games have some major wars in the late industrial and early modern eras.

Tim

	11-02-2005 00:38									#12
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Since there is no more discussion, let's place pvzh's proposal under consideration:

1. Yes/No: increase base turns required to create an outpost to 6 (the same as a mine). The action does not consume a worker.
   
2. Yes/No: increase base turns required to create an airfield to 6. The action does not consume a worker.
   
3. Yes/No: increase base turns required to create a radar tower to 6. The action does not consume a worker.
   

	11-02-2005 01:51									#13
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1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Yes

Anything except radar towers is not much of an issue, since planes on airfields are not safer than in newly capured town (combat setlers are better anyway) and outposts are defenceless having visibility radius 1 regardless of elevation.

	11-02-2005 02:10									#14
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The issue with airfields is that they provide a way to receive reinforcements by airlift, and they cost much less than an airport.

	11-02-2005 02:19									#15
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quote: Originally posted by pvzh and outposts are defenceless having visibility radius 1 regardless of elevation.

Don't they see more, when put on Hills, or Mountains?

As to Airports, I think it's better to force a human to bring more Workers to build those. I mean, normally you only need one.

	11-02-2005 02:22									#16
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Right, you need one but you lose him. Some players don't want to make that sacrifice.

Outposts do have more visibility on high elevation, IIRC.

	11-02-2005 02:23									#17
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quote: Don't they see more, when put on Hills, or Mountains?

AFAIK, No, that was main fuss about them, but I did not test it personaly.

	11-02-2005 02:50									#18
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quote: Originally posted by alexman Right, you need one but you lose him. Some players don't want to make that sacrifice.

In the late Industrial Age (or, more often, early Modern Age), when Airports come by, most players will have that one spare Worker to get the Airfield on the receiving side of the invasion. So making the cost high instead, seems better to me.

If you are concerned about Airfields at home, then make the cost very high. This will not solve the problem entirely, but will make it less exploitative.

quote: Originally posted by alexman Outposts do have more visibility on high elevation, IIRC.

I just checked - they do. See attached pic. One is on a hill, the better one on a Mountain. Both provide increased visibility.

	11-02-2005 07:02									#19
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I say just get rid of airfields entirely. Worker built airfields are too much cheaper than city built airports and are not used by the AI.

I've modded games to play without airfields and railroads, and it works fine. You actually have to think about defence in the modern age when there isn't unlimited movement, and the discovery of steam power doesn't give a huge exaguated production bonus.

	11-02-2005 10:45									#20
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Am I remembering correctly that outposts block amphibious landings by units without amphibious assault capability on tiles that contain them? If so, making it possible to build outposts without consuming the workers would open up a serious exploit. Even if players don't deliberately abuse the exploit, the sort of "high ground" tiles that are the most interesting places to build outposts (because you can see farther from higher ground) are also the places where enemy landings are hardest to counterattack.

On the other hand, the ability to build outposts without consuming a worker would cause me to start using a feature I currently never use. That would be a significant advantage. And even if I'm right about the potential exploit, players could avoid most of the consequences of the exploit by refraining from going overboard in their use of outposts.

I definitely do not like the idea of changing the mechanism for airfields. I don't think the current model keeps the option of building them from being interesting, nor do I remember anyone explaining a basis on which a change could be expected to help AIs be more competitive.

Regarding radar towers, as I said before, I would want to see the results of play-testing before I would support the proposed change. In the absence of play-testing results, I will vote against that part of the proposal because I don't like the idea of making everyone who uses the AU Mod a guinea pig.

	18-02-2005 07:17									#21
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Outposts do indeed prevent non-amphibious landings.

Time to vote:

quote: Yes/No: increase base turns required to create an outpost to 6 (the same as a mine). The action does not consume a worker. Yes/No: increase base turns required to create an airfield to 6. The action does not consume a worker. Yes/No: increase base turns required to create a radar tower to 6. The action does not consume a worker.

My votes:
1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Yes

	18-02-2005 20:46									#22
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1: YES
2: YES
3: YES

Even if the AI builds only a few outposts on hills and mountains, this should make mid-game intercontinental invasions much more interesting.

	19-02-2005 11:08									#23
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Looking at the current votes, airfields, an overpowered cheap airport for humans, are not even going to consume a population point now. If anything they should consume 5 workers if it was possible, not none. I'm against these changes, if anything airfields should be taken out of the game. They reduce strategic depth, because its a no brainer to build lots of airfields and no city based airports.

	19-02-2005 21:52									#24
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Yes
No
No

I think we can come up with something better for airfields, and that the AI does just fine with radar towers.

	20-02-2005 03:06									#25
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Am I remembering correctly that outposts block amphibious landings by units without amphibious assault capability on tiles that contain them?

Until this is confirmed, I'm all for the proposals for outposts and radar towers. I can barely remember ever using them myself and I'm sure I've never seen the AI build them. Even if the AI doesn't build these, it adds some depth to human strategy.

As Theseus said, something better can be thought up for airfields.

	20-02-2005 22:13									#26
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speaking of worker jobs. i dislike the extremely cheap forest chop in comparison to the roading. in civ3 and ptw it took 10 turns to chop and 6 to build a road. now it's only 4 for the chop and still 6 for roading.

i would like to initiate a discussion about whether to make this job more expensive. my opinion would be to go back to the PTW settings, but anything inbetween would be better too


some reasons in favour of the change:
- it makes it worth building a road first and then bring in other workers to chop it down (like currently still with jungles)
- making a road requires the removal of a small part of the trees. clearing the tile requires ALL to be chopped --> real-life reason.
- 10 shields can be a lot in the early game and also in corrupt cities further out. they should not be gifted with simple 4 worker turns.

	24-02-2005 03:06									#27
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My votes (with apologies for not noticing the vote sooner):

1) Yes
2) No
3) No

I would be willing to change my vote on (3) if someone provides experimental evidence that the AI builds a reasonable but not excessive number of radar towers with the change. But the AI does a good job with radar towers under the stock rules, building a reasonable but not excessive number of them, and I don't want to take the chance that a change would result either in AIs not building enough towers or in their building an absurd number of them.

	24-02-2005 04:49									#28
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I think the cost of chopping forests in C3C is balanced very nicely. Under the old rules, until a civ had some spare workers available, chopping forests was rarely worth the delay in everything else the workers needed to do. Under the new rules, chopping forests is almost always an option worth considering, but about the only time it's ever a no-brainer for me is when I really need the underlying grassland or plains tile or when a resource is involved.

Regarding Saberwolf's first and third reasons (the two that are in terms of gameplay):

quote: - it makes it worth building a road first and then bring in other workers to chop it down (like currently still with jungles)

My own view has always been that unless I'm in a big hurry to build a road for strategic reasons, I'd rather chop or clear first in order to take advantage of the lower road-building cost after the tile is chopped or cleared. For me, increasing the cost of chopping would almost never cause me to build roads through unchopped forest, just as I almost never build roads through uncleared jungle or marsh and just as I almost never built roads through unchopped forests prior to C3C.

quote: 10 shields can be a lot in the early game and also in corrupt cities further out. they should not be gifted with simple 4 worker turns.

In my view, the only time four worker turns are anything resembling "simple" is when a civ is clearly ahead in its worker jobs. What you get for those four worker turns is ten shields, but the same ten shilds would be available for later use if you didn't go ahead and chop to get them. So the question is, is it worth delaying everything else workers need to do in order to get those ten shields sooner rather than later, or would it be better to have the workers concentrate on other things for the time being and leave the ten shields from the forest until later? For me, tha lower cost of chopping in C3C makes that question more interesting than it was in previous versions where the cost of chopping was higher and chopping was interesting less often.

The one aspect of Saberwolf's post where I strongly sympathize is in regard to how high the cost of building roads through forests is, although my reasons differ somewhat from his. In my view, the real problem is that building roads through forests is too expensive, not that chopping is too cheap.

I have an idea that might be worth considering if it would work, but I'm not sure whether it would work or not. If I understand things correctly, the time it takes workers to do things on different types of terrain is tied to movement cost. That suggests the possibility that having workers ignore the movement cost for forest might bring the cost to road forests down to that of roading flatlands. But would that be a worthwhile thing to do if it would work? And could it be done without nasty side effects?

	24-02-2005 05:57									#29
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I think the current # turns to chop forest is fine.

Myself, I consider choping a forest in the capital for an ultra-early granery a no-brainer.

Otherwise, I tend to work them into expensive builds along with the rest of terriagn, generally prefering to mine grassland with shield to choping forest, but prefering to chop forest [on grassland] to improving a non-shield grassland.

In the case of plains, I generally make irrigating the existing plains up to amount it can currently be worked a higher priority than making more plains via chops. And so I'm getting 10 shields this way that I simply wouldn't get getting otherwise.

	08-04-2005 01:36									#30
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Bad news...unless I have oversight something in my setting (has anyone tested this, too?), the entire thing does not work.RT, Airfields and Outpost seem to comsume workers regardless of the assigned number of worker turns.It isn't possible the other way round, too - mines, irrigations etc. don't start to consume workers when you decrease w.t. to 1. Seems to be completly hardcoded.

The questions of AI behaviour seems pointless with this new information; however, I don't think it would change their behaviour (haven't test it though).