20-01-2005 02:19									#1
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Hello

I would like to get this issue clear very much. How much pollution (yellow triangles) has the whole planet accumulate to reach global warming? 100 000? More? Less?

I could not find any relevant postings...

Thanks in advance.

	20-01-2005 14:46									#2
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I had figured it was uncleared pollution tiles rather than the yellow triangles which determines the odds of global warming effects. I also supposed that in civ3 the effects are one tile at a time just like the regular pollution is handled rather than a set threshhold that causes massive instantaneous change. It will be interesting to hear how it really works.

	20-01-2005 15:34									#3
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In civ2 the treshold was 9 polluted tiles globally. More than that and you have a change of getting global warming.

Not sure about civ3 though but I think it is a combination of the global amount of pollution from cities(those yellow smokestacks, or was it triangles) and polluted tiles.

	20-01-2005 19:14									#4
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its annoying that all pollution is counted...

as the comp ai almost never bothers to clean up pollution.

That said...after a huge nuclear war..with about 26 cities nukes...

maybe 8 pieces of land would undergo the effects of global warming.

the average was 5 per turn.

Now that i have cleaned up all that mess (some 8 turns and 187 workers later)...i still get an average of 3 a turn.

So really the effects of global warming seem rather muted and not scaled to massive nuke fests.

	20-01-2005 19:41									#5
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The editor says nothing about pollution, that I can see anyway. Pollution on tiles does nothing to add to the global warming AFAIK. It can eventually do damage to the tile itself, but I have never seen it do any.

It is quite common in my Sid games to see the AI never clear any pollution as it has no workers by the time of factories.

The funny thing about global warming is that it could improve a tile. I have seen a (forrested tundra tile?) a tile go to grassland. But most of the time I get only a few occurences of warming.

	20-01-2005 20:51									#6
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A large Number of yellow triangles alone is sufficent by itself to cause global warming.

I've seen it when I've had no polution tiles and the AI doesn't even have the tech for either Factories or Hospitals.

Global Warming isn't nearly as bad as it was in Civ II, where entire coasts got jungle.

The annoying thing is when it causes a perfectly balanced city to be on track for a minus 1 deficit, and a worker needs built and the rail in an irrigation needs pillaged to balance.

	20-01-2005 20:53									#7
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In Civ III, tundra doesn't get changed by default.
Forest can be cleared by global warming.

Grassland can become Plains, which if the tile had no natural shield isn't particularly bad.

	20-01-2005 23:07									#8
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so far global warming has been exclusively turning jungle into grassland in my game. This has been strangely conveneient because all 10 tiles so far changed in this way were on a landmass in which I had scores of workers trying to clear the disease infested jungle expanse the hard way

	21-01-2005 00:34									#9
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn A large Number of yellow triangles alone is sufficent by itself to cause global warming.

But how much? I tried with 2000 per turn from 4000 BC to 10 AD and it did not occur.

	22-01-2005 01:32									#10
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i have never seen global warming NOT happen.

and i was sure it was tied to the amount of pollution patches sticking around,

and not just the probability represented by those yellow triangles.
If it is the yellow triangles.then the comp Ai dooms us all

	22-01-2005 01:58									#11
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Like I said the pollution on the ground has no effect on global warming. I am at 2000AD in a sid game right now, waiting for the clock to run down. Several civs have massive amounts of tiles covered in pollution and have had for some time.

They are not clearing it at all. I have not had any warming. This is because I built no hospitals and only two factories. I am surprised that none has occurred as it is usually the case, but not always.

Oh and no coal plants. I did build two, but scrapped them after I got Hoovers. One city has four triangles as it built Shakespears and is now a metro.

	22-01-2005 02:21									#12
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Vmxa, I think I have an idea what your answer may be (a few ideas, actually, knowing nothing of the game you speak of ), but please explain the situation/rationale behind not building more factories.

	22-01-2005 05:07									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Solomwi Vmxa, I think I have an idea what your answer may be (a few ideas, actually, knowing nothing of the game you speak of ), but please explain the situation/rationale behind not building more factories.

I could see that I was not going to be make any items that could not be built in a few turns with my main two cities and 4 or 5 turns in the few other key cities.

IOW I was only going to get to tanks and maybe MI. I would not build any MI as I have scores of infantry I could upgrade with more money than Bill Gates.

So I did not want to be cleaning pollution constantly and facing global warming or at least no more than I had to face.

If it did turn out that I wanted more production I could crank out a factory in a dozen or two cities in short order. I still have a GA I could trigger as well in a pinch.

The only civ I could hope to take down now has at least 200 infantry units and several hundreds other units. I have two border cities with them, but they do not want to attack me any more.

I count on the AI to throw about half its forces against my first spear head and they stopped before they lost that many and blocked by movement with lots of units.

The others have up to 1200 units the last time I checked. Even the civ that has fewer cities than any other has 800+ units.

With only calvs and infantry you would be hard press to take a city that will have a minimum of 50 units. The key for me to survive the counter attack is to have a barracks so my armies and troops are healed after each attack.

My attempt on the Zulu stalled and I was nearly wiped out (invasion forces). I did not watch that battle, but I know what happened as when I came back to the game I had lost my only UU (Swiss Merc). No other units were lost and at that time I had 5 armies and a bunch of calvs and rifles. I was unable to upgrade as my culture for that city did not get past theirs and my harbor was not connected.

So I have seen many of these battles and I knew they had about 167 unis in the stack that would attack (stopped by forrest). So it most likely that the UU was not used until all the others had been redlined. I do not like to watch these battles as they take a long time and I get mad as the AI keeps using my army that has 2 hit points left, while the other units sit there unused. I have lot lots of armies that way.

So anyway I just did not see any need for factories at that time. I had not done that before, but then I had not used communism much either. Since I could have 30 cities making a unit in 8 turns with no factories and no pollution, that was good enough. I mean every city I have has at least 3 infantry units in it. I have infantry armies to rush to any pressure I see coming.

If a shot came up for something like a wonder I had one city with about 90+ shields that I could prebuild and build it. I have spies on all civs, so I can keep tabs and I just decide to ride the game out and not go to the work on trying to take down anyone else.

It has been a strange game as no civs are at war with each and have seldom been at war. I have only America at war with me, but they have not send any one in so long and they want peace, I just won't give without compensation. They ar ethe largest, so I am not bother to attack them.

	22-01-2005 07:56									#14
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I hate pollution. In my latest mod I made it so factories produce 0 pollution. Who ever hear of pollution in the 19th century anyways?

pollution sucks in game mechanics.

Is there anyway to disable it? I could disable pollution from power plants and factories easy enough. But I don't think you can disable population pollution. production should be balanced out by maintenance costs, and the time it takes to build the facilities.

	22-01-2005 08:53									#15
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Well I am not fond of it either, but 19th England was always discribe as having lots of fog, when in fact it was pollution.

I think it is fair to say that a city that is among the largest (metros) is going to have pollution from the people. They dump stuff in the rivers and lakes and the wayside.
This is true all through history.

	22-01-2005 12:25									#16
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v, in that game, would you not be planning to field a large force of Tanks/MAs? Even being Commie, I'd think that Factories would be useful...

	22-01-2005 12:52									#17
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No because the tech race fell apart and I am not sure why. As normally the top dog manages to hold about 6 turn pace from the late industrial to the end.

Some where in the early industrial the top two just slowed way down. The only thing I could see was they were seriously polluted, more than normal. Since I did no research after I built the GL, I did not help any. Usually I will join back in mid to late industrial age to try to get a tech here and there that is not chosen right away.

I did not build libs or unis at all, except for a few cities that got libs for the culture. So those three things must have dogged it down.

The top dog stayed in a declared, but mostly unfought war from that point on as well. When the second rank civ started being first to techs, it did things like not research tanks and went back to get marine tech, very strange.

Three times I had my lone scientist get to single digits in an optional tech only to have the AI research it out from under me.

I finally stopped even that. So I could see that I would be so late in the game by the time I got tanks, it was not going to be worth using them. I cranked out 40-50 just about the time the game ended.

One possible issue for me was that I could not rush anything with cash and I did not want to use pop. I had some 150K on hand. No one even ever demanded any money from me? Once or twice the wanted tech or a trade for lux, but never declared?

Also I had not seen this before, but one civ had not made contacts with 3 of the civs? I had been giving out my map, so they all knew where the civ was. I finally gave the contact out in the last 10 turns.

I had wars going off and on with the second civ for most of the second half of the game.

So yes factories are useful, but unneeded, so I skipped them. Just being lazy, that all. I mean with cities far far away still being able to build things in 10 turns and that city was all tundra, why bother? I just wanted to avoid the pollution.

I tend to only build factories in core cities and seldom have more than 10 of them. Normally I cannot afford to crank out units in more than 8-10 cities, but with communism, I could have.

	22-01-2005 14:09									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I hate pollution. In my latest mod I made it so factories produce 0 pollution. Who ever hear of pollution in the 19th century anyways?

By the 19th century there were already efforts in England to restore some architecture damaged by air pollution. Lots of smoke came not only from factories, but also from houses burning coal for heat. Big industrial cities already suffered from smog long before automobiles became the problem.

It's very annoying in the game, but it's close to reality. Until you put a cap on Factories (Recycling Center), they kill ya. In other words, you have too few Workers. One can do very well even with Coal Plants.

	22-01-2005 22:38									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 By the 19th century there were already efforts in England to restore some architecture damaged by air pollution. Lots of smoke came not only from factories, but also from houses burning coal for heat. Big industrial cities already suffered from smog long before automobiles became the problem. It's very annoying in the game, but it's close to reality. Until you put a cap on Factories (Recycling Center), they kill ya. In other words, you have too few Workers. One can do very well even with Coal Plants.

reality? huge chunks of land were unworkable to England in the 19th century? Since when does air quality constitute ability to work the land?

Civ3 model is total bullshit. The tile should at least give something.

and is there a way to stop your worker being kicked off the square when pollution occurs? I hate micromanage to the point I have to make sure my workers don't get rearrainged and my cities start starving. I wish there was a way to lock the workers on their squares.

as I've said, the hit should be economic, not production.

	22-01-2005 22:48									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident and is there a way to stop your worker being kicked off the square when pollution occurs? I hate micromanage to the point I have to make sure my workers don't get rearrainged and my cities start starving. I wish there was a way to lock the workers on their squares.

I am not sure I followed this one. I often see pollution occur on the same tile I cleaned a few turns before and the workers are still fortified on that tile.

They are not kicked off the tile and I just unfort them and clean it again.

I really do not see the concern about realism, it is a game, not real. They picked a model to represent a feature, it is as good as any others, none are real. If this was a simulation and not a game, then I would agree.

BTW I am guessing that dumping of trash and slag and waste made a few acres unproductive as they still do. Mountains of slag have fallen into rivers, lake and ponds as well as slide down hills to cover pastures in the US, even in the 20th century.

	22-01-2005 23:18									#21
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v, he meant citizens inside the city screen.

	22-01-2005 23:31									#22
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Ah, that was clear as mud. Ok no way then, you always need to reposition the citizen after cleanup or suffer with it being used the way the gov decides.

	23-01-2005 18:16									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident reality? huge chunks of land were unworkable to England in the 19th century? Since when does air quality constitute ability to work the land?

As vmxa said, there are waste dumps. The simple communal waste all metros produce takes quite big chunks of land to store, as most of it is still not cleaned properly. But there's not only communal waste. Heavy industry makes it's own. Shoots can become the size of a hill. Some have chemical reactions going on inside, poisoning air an water around. I know that heavy industry in Poland has left many of those, and presumably, so have other contries' factories and coal plants. For all purposes, yes, they make the terrain they're on completely useless. And cleaning the terrain takes quite expensive efforts.

	23-01-2005 19:24									#24
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The bits of the midlands covered by slagheaps must've reached some considerable total area.

	24-01-2005 00:09									#25
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As I recall, the polution in London peaked roughly around 1850, when people started making enough money to spend a portion of it improving their life style by starting to clean it up.

It was manifest mostly by substantly decreased life expectancy.

Even as far back as the 1600s, London (and all other major cities in Europe) had more natural deaths than natural births because of the unsanitary conditions. The only reason they were even maintagining population was the vast immigaration from the farms.

Oh, and if you think car polution is bad, consider the alternative of everyone getting around in horses and the amount of horse polution on the ground left + air polution caused by it.

	24-01-2005 00:15									#26
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I think adding Hospital reduces population polution should suffice to eliminate the population polution if you want to.

I sugest for any facility you remove polution from (that causes 2+), that you add a makes the same number of people unhappy switch.

Then Recyling Plants & Mass Transit could make 2 people happy each so that there's still a reason for them. (Remove the Agr bonsus from Recyling Plants.)

quote: Originally posted by Dissident But I don't think you can disable population pollution. production should be balanced out by maintenance costs, and the time it takes to build the facilities.

`

	24-01-2005 00:49									#27
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perhaps I will change it so hospitals reduce population pollution then. And then raise the maintenance costs considerably. because that's another complaint I have. Not that there's pollution, but you have to wait so long until you can build anything to curb pollution.

	25-01-2005 21:07									#28
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BUMP

Still nobody knows about inner mecahnics of Global Warming occurance?

	26-01-2005 01:17									#29
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Population is usually the larger source of polution in Civ III.

Global Warming is an RNG event. Per city; never seen it strike a tile not near a city.

In my current game (stock Conquests), I fairly quickly got a polution on an unmined mountain tile after the city grew to size 13. I still have not bothered to clean it up in the modern era. Hasn't yet caused Global Warming. AI is way behind, so they still aren't contributing any polution.

	26-01-2005 01:57									#30
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There are probably some treshold value, one tile polluted forever probably won't affect you at all.


Remember a story one guy told about global warming spiralling out of control after a nuclear exchange. Everything ended up as desert