24-01-2005 21:17									#241
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Read my posts and then ask.

Your posts make no sense.

	24-01-2005 21:19									#242
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Patroklos He does not gain anything from it materially, which I suppose is all that matters to commies, but to him personally obviously he considers his own survival less important than his whole unit. It makes him happy/content/whatever he is feeling to do that action.

And that is the most ridiculous thing ever said, even here at poly.

	24-01-2005 21:20									#243
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Ned There is a difference between providing law so that private parties have rules to follow in their private transactions, and providing no law, but instead placing all decisions in the hands of a committee or party member which in former times may have been denoted as a King or a King's legate. One of the more critical advances in civilization is the rule of law. Communism dispenses with that in favor of a more primitive form of government.

Only if Stalinism meant all communism could you statements be correct.

but communism is not just Marxism, leninism, Stalinist, or Maoism.

Maybe you should read a bit more on the topic.

	24-01-2005 21:24									#244
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Patroklos He does not gain anything from it materially, which I suppose is all that matters to commies, but to him personally obviously he considers his own survival less important than his whole unit. It makes him happy/content/whatever he is feeling to do that action.

I doubt that it makes him either happy or content. Even if it did, it's not something he gets to keep, but loses along with his life. There is nothing selfish in sacrificing your own life to save the lives of others. Furthermore, assume that he didn't volunteer, but was instead ordered to do a job which meant death, such as holding the line in the face of unstoppable odds so that other units can be evacuated or reinforced.

I suppose the respose is that the soldier holds some values more dearly than he values his own life. There's nothing wrong with that. It's perfectly respectable and I too have values for which I'd be willing to sacrifice myself. The point is, you lose everything by your sacrifice. It's hardly an act of self-interest.

	24-01-2005 21:25									#245
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Please don't feed the Ned troll.

	24-01-2005 21:30									#246
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by GePap Only if Stalinism meant all communism could you statements be correct. but communism is not just Marxism, leninism, Stalinist, or Maoism. Maybe you should read a bit more on the topic.

GePap, there are certain fundamentals on this topic that are inescapable. The goal of communism is economic equality. In achieving this goal the individual does not have the right to do as he pleases economically. This is fundamental. His choices are made for him either by the party or by committee. If he disagrees with the choice made for him by the party or by the committee, he does not have the right to leave. A right to leave implies a right to choose, which is fundamentally denied to the people in a communist society.

You may say that communism is not Stalinism, but people who observe the fundamental lack of freedom that is communism know that totalitarian dictatorship is the inevitable result and the very essence of communism.

	24-01-2005 21:30									#247
	Put an end to popups!

The scary, but amusing thing is that sometimes you aren't sure if he's trolling or not.

	24-01-2005 21:33									#248
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Considering he's been a hell of a lot more reasonable in the past in the cap-com debates, I believe he's trolling. I only bother responding to him if I can DinoDoc him.

	24-01-2005 21:35									#249
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: And that is the most ridiculous thing ever said, even here at poly.

Kid's can't understand reflex: "What! Thats Ridiculous!"

	24-01-2005 21:37									#250
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Kid's can't understand reflex: "What! Thats Ridiculous!"

I don't understand how pigs fly, but that doesn't keep me up at night, because they don't fly.

	24-01-2005 21:51									#251
	Remove this text

btw, I do understand the theory. The idea is that someone gets pleasure out of charity, and that the pleasure they get is equal to or greater than the pain they feel. That's an instinct that we all have, but intelligent people understand that it's just an instinct, and that there are higher goals other than just benefiting oneself.

	24-01-2005 21:53									#252
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: If you are to believe that altruism does not exist then you have to bring more to the table than mere speuculation about how another persons mind works, becuase no one in their right 'mind' whould take your word for something that you have no real first hand knowledge about against the only person who really knows the mind - the subject.

And again you completely ignore my earlier points. I do not claim it doesn't "exist", but only exists consciously as a delusion. It is this which you misunderstand, and accordingly your argument is precluded.

quote: Your posts make no sense.

Would you like to play with some shapes?

quote: And that is the most ridiculous thing ever said, even here at poly.

I think not, it is relatively impossible for gain not to occur, even though one form may be categorically unobvious, or even resulting in their death it is perhaps indicative of shallow thinking to not look deeper than that.

	24-01-2005 21:55									#253
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy And again you completely ignore my earlier points. I do not claim it doesn't "exist", but only exists consciously as a delusion. It is this which you misunderstand, and accordingly your argument is precluded.

Irrelevent. What's the significance with the diference in meaning between something that is a delusion and something that does not exist.

	24-01-2005 21:59									#254
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Irrelevent. What's the significance with the diference in meaning between something that is a delusion and something that does not exist.

Because rationality is not required for it to exist in your mind. Consider something like a belief in God, which exists in the mind of the believer even though it fails rationally. Similarly with our perceptions of ourselves, hence you can claim until the cows come home that you're not an egoistic being but it wont cut any ice, because you're not escaping the consciousness, whereas it is the unconscious that is being described. Surely it is obvious by now, I'm running out of ways I can articulate it.

	24-01-2005 22:29									#255
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy And again you completely ignore my earlier points. I do not claim it doesn't "exist", but only exists consciously as a delusion. It is this which you misunderstand, and accordingly your argument is precluded.

You claim it's a delusion because the person who sacrifices gains some sort of emotional or intellectual gratification? So, sacrificing something real for a temporary chemical reaction, in your mind, negates the concept of doing something for others without real gain. Talk about a delusion.

	24-01-2005 22:40									#256
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: You claim it's a delusion because the person who sacrifices gains some sort of emotional or intellectual gratification?

No, because it's logically predicated in themselves, which begs the question asked (repeatedly) earlier.

	24-01-2005 22:41									#257
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Why are the commies so seemingly desperate to show that altruism is true?

	24-01-2005 22:52									#258
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy No, because it's logically predicated in themselves, which begs the question asked (repeatedly) earlier.

This disproves altruism how?

	24-01-2005 22:53									#259
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Why are the commies so seemingly desperate to show that altruism is true?

Because the supposition that alutrism doesn't exist is used as a proof that a society of sharing and rational planning can't exist either. Of course, this ignores the fact that choosing socialism is a self-interested act, as well as one for the benefit of others.

	24-01-2005 23:04									#260
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Capitalism is no advancement in the rule of law. It is legalized exploitation. It's defended by force, and disobedience is punished by death. Communism is rational, and is the only true advancement to civilization.

Lets take this bit by bit

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Capitalism is no advancement in the rule of law. It is legalized exploitation.

Only in the kidaverse where I can be defined to be "exploiting" someone even if I pay them triple the pay they would get in a (presumably non-exploitive) state job. Labour standards and minimum wage legislation actually makes exploitation ILLEGAL.

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious It's defended by force,

Yes within a defined set of rules. If you break down my door and enter my home, the police will eject you by force. But this would result in any system with private property. Even in sysetems without private property I imagine that force would be used as necessary to maintain the system.

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious and disobedience is punished by death.

HUH--- Death ???? Uhh most capitalist democracies don't have the death penalty and even if you totally reject our system and decided to sit on your ass for the rest of your life, there would be a number of mechanisms and institutions that would kick in so that you need not die. Also, nothing prevents you from leaving a given nation-state or even forming a commune.

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Communism is rational, .

It only seems rational if you assume things and define things in ways that are completely inconsistent with current reality. Aren't you one of the people saying communism REQUIRES world-wide implementation? Do you see this as likely given the various national, ethnic and religious divides?

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious and is the only true advancement to civilization.

I doubt this. In previous discussions you have indicated a level of state control over individuals that I would consider to be a regression in the area of personal rights and freedoms.

	24-01-2005 23:15									#261
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Because the supposition that alutrism doesn't exist is used as a proof that a society of sharing and rational planning can't exist either.

I think that altrusim exists but in insufficient quantities in enough people to make large scale "sharing" work. many people are willing to be altruistic and help out a person who has had misfortune.

But when government systems get involved, people can get a lot less "sharing". They see the fruits of their labors taken from them not only to help the unfortunate but also the lazy, the party animal, the dope addict etc etc. For many the question then becomes one of " why am I busting my ass??

AS for "rational planning", if this means central planning, it would need to be much more reactive than previous models.

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Of course, this ignores the fact that choosing socialism is a self-interested act, as well as one for the benefit of others.

I can agree with this, but this does not apply to socialism only but even down to the level of support for social programs. I like that Canada has health care-- I feel better protected myself because of this.

	24-01-2005 23:33									#262
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Why are the commies so seemingly desperate to show that altruism is true?

The assumption that capitalists make is that natural selection takes place at the level of individual, hence the dispicable notion of "Social Darwinism" used by the libertarians. Natural selection actually takes place at the level of the genes. The selfish gene explains things that seem impossible with traditional organism-level selection, such as social insects and kin selection (an individual sacrificing itself for it's siblings, since siblings share at least 50% of thier genes, a individual sacrificing itself will be selected for if it can save more than 2 siblings).

	24-01-2005 23:51									#263
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Flubber Only in the kidaverse where I can be defined to be "exploiting" someone even if I pay them triple the pay they would get in a (presumably non-exploitive) state job.

Exploitation, in the Marxist sense of the word, is when you do not get paid the full value of what you produce. In slavery or feudalism exploitation is much easier to recognize. In feudalism, after you spend five days working your own land, you are required to work a day on the Lord's land. That exploitation is very easy to see, and in slavery, you don't even get to work your own land, all the work you do is for the owner. In capitalism, exploitation is more difficult to see because you get paid for your time (except in the case of piece work, but the principle is the same). The same principle applies in capitalism, though. The laborer does not get paid the full amount of the value he produces, but instead a portion of that value is appropriated by the capitalist. That appropiration is what Marxists call exploitation.

	24-01-2005 23:54									#264
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Flubber I think that altrusim exists but in insufficient quantities in enough people to make large scale "sharing" work. many people are willing to be altruistic and help out a person who has had misfortune.

Well, humans are not only altruistic beings. Any society which tries to model itself on only one facet of human nature is doomed to have problems.

quote: I like that Canada has health care-- I feel better protected myself because of this.

Exactly!

	25-01-2005 00:20									#265
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Because rationality is not required for it to exist in your mind. Consider something like a belief in God, which exists in the mind of the believer even though it fails rationally. Similarly with our perceptions of ourselves, hence you can claim until the cows come home that you're not an egoistic being but it wont cut any ice, because you're not escaping the consciousness, whereas it is the unconscious that is being described. Surely it is obvious by now, I'm running out of ways I can articulate it.

I'm not talking about the unconsciousness. It exists in the consciousness. The idea that you are the only important thing in the universe is wrong. The truth is that they universe as a whole is important. So it's not delusional when a person realizes that. When they can not realize it, that's when they are delusional. The problem is that they can't see the forest from the trees.

	25-01-2005 00:23									#266
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Why are the commies so seemingly desperate to show that altruism is true?

It's not that at all. Whenever someone has such a warped view of the universe it will always draw attention. You're making a fool out of yourself.

	25-01-2005 00:35									#267
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Flubber Only in the kidaverse where I can be defined to be "exploiting" someone even if I pay them triple the pay they would get in a (presumably non-exploitive) state job. Labour standards and minimum wage legislation actually makes exploitation ILLEGAL.

Show me where the law even claims to make exploitation illegal. Minimum wage is a set wage. It's impossible to set a wage that is not exploitive unless it was so high that there would be no employment. Exploitation is the driving force of capitalism. It's necessary to it's survival.

quote: Yes within a defined set of rules. If you break down my door and enter my home, the police will eject you by force. But this would result in any system with private property. Even in sysetems without private property I imagine that force would be used as necessary to maintain the system.

That's not really what I'm talking about. The system of exploitation is defended by force. I'm not talking about defending people's property, only their right to exploit people.

quote: HUH--- Death ???? Uhh most capitalist democracies don't have the death penalty and even if you totally reject our system and decided to sit on your ass for the rest of your life, there would be a number of mechanisms and institutions that would kick in so that you need not die. Also, nothing prevents you from leaving a given nation-state or even forming a commune.

Lack of resources prevent me. Not to mention that I'm not the only concern. My concern is for the proletariate as a whole.

quote: It only seems rational if you assume things and define things in ways that are completely inconsistent with current reality. Aren't you one of the people saying communism REQUIRES world-wide implementation? Do you see this as likely given the various national, ethnic and religious divides?

I see ethnic and other divisions much more of a problem for capitalism. War and nationalism makes sense in an irrational system like capitalism, not communism.

quote: I doubt this. In previous discussions you have indicated a level of state control over individuals that I would consider to be a regression in the area of personal rights and freedoms.

Of course you do. You want to mainatian the right to exploit because it benefits you personally.

	25-01-2005 00:52									#268
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Of course you do. You want to mainatian the right to exploit because it benefits you personally.

Kid has just summed up the Libertarian philosophy.

	25-01-2005 00:56									#269
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Odin Kid has just summed up the Libertarian philosophy.

From what I've read, he's also summed up your philosophy. It seems you guys not only aren't on the same page with respect to communism, you're not even reading the same book.

	25-01-2005 01:02									#270
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Kontiki From what I've read, he's also summed up your philosophy. It seems you guys not only aren't on the same page with respect to communism, you're not even reading the same book.

No. Neither one of us wants an exploitive system. We have other differenses.