21-01-2005 23:40									#1
	Getting the AI out of Democracy Get a bigger avatar today!

After conquering the meager Zulu empire, I found myself with the corner on the coal market. I have all of it! Woohoo! This is the early Industrial Age at Emperor. I have tech parity with the AI and am in Republic. All the rest are Democracies

Despite all my warring, I am not the strongest, partly because I have been paying through the nose to the Arabs for saltpeter. Well, the biggest and baddest civ, the Romans, demanded coal and I said no. Not too surprisingly they declared war.

The Romans had 5 small towns on my continent. I have taken 2 of them and have killed upwards of 20 units in their cities plus various invasion forces. I checked F3 and sure enough, they're still in Democracy. This surprised me since they should be in the 2nd tier of WW unhappiness (75% unhappy) by now and will soon be in the 3rd once I take another city.

They'll take peace now, however, I'd prefer to force them out of Democracy into Fascism (4 turns of Anarchy plus population loss). Then I'll get peace and have them waste another 4 turns to get back to Democracy. Unfortunately, they won't take that first step out of Democracy. What do I have to do to get them out of Democracy?

I really don't want to wait for a big invasion fleet to come a knockin' and I really really want peace before I lose saltpeter in 12 turns. Is it possible that the AI knows this and is therefore refusing to budge?

	22-01-2005 00:20									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I think they will stay in Democracy for as long as they can. Core cities usually feel little of the War Weariness, so the hurt empire can still be reasonably efficient. This is especially true if the AI has many luxuries, and had at least one prolonged peace period to build the infrastructure.

Of course, theoretically, Democracy can be overthrowed by force. Take the close cities, and kill many units.

Another idea would be to bring others into the war. This will provide many enemy units dying to, and killing Roman troops, and all that adds War Weariness. All you should need is one tech they don't have. Just make sure not to bring everyone against the Romans. Leave a civ or two, so others can create a nice mess of Alliances.

A screenie of the minimap would help a lot. A save would help even more.

	22-01-2005 03:38									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Any chance you can strip them of luxuries?

	23-01-2005 01:21									#4
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I've routinely been amazed at how long AIs can stay in representative governments in wars against me even when I take a number of their cities. If I'm interpreting some things I've read in explanations of war weariness correctly, the reason is that there is a bug in the game that prevents AIs from feeling it correctly when humans capture their cities. In any case, I wouldn't count on driving the Romans out of Democracy even if you capture all their cities on your continent.

Modo44's alliance idea would be an option if you want to do something on that big a scale. But it sounds like you don't want the 20-turn commitment that an alliance would require.

	23-01-2005 01:36									#5
	Increase Your PM Length

The AI is not going to change out of a Rep govt due to happiness reaasons.

It will change if unit support becomes a problem, or in the case of high WW govt only, when forced into anarchy.

	24-01-2005 21:46									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

An update: After taking somewhere around 9 cities (all small island ones) and knocking out scores of units, the Romans finally switched out of Democracy - to Republic! I don't know if I forced them out of Democracy or if they just switched on their own. The should be at max WW but they just keep on coming.

The Romans have 4 sources dyes spread all over and I think they import the rest so I can't really knock out their luxes easily.

I always thought the AI would switch to Fascism for war, given the chance. This is the first Democracy to Republic switch I've ever seen.

I gave the Arabs Scientific Method four turns before completing TOE in exchange for 20 more turns of saltpeter and an alliance against the Romans. After a few turns, they too switched from Democracy to Republic. Again, no Fascism.

	04-02-2005 17:04									#7
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by gunkulator The Romans have 4 sources dyes spread all over and I think they import the rest so I can't really knock out their luxes easily.

Maybe this sounds really stupid, and besides I don't know if this is allowed in the game you play by the rules set, but did you think of a trade embargo against the romans with those who deliver them their luxuries? Off course that will cost you something (I don't assume the others will go for the embargo just because you ask them, but anyway...).

	04-02-2005 20:48									#8
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Trade Embargos aren't particularly effective at knocking out a trade because the AI is programmed to never accept a trade embargo against someone they are currently actively trading with.

The time to sign the Trade Embargo is when they are already at war with them to ensure if they make peace early they still can't trade. (Sign the TE deal seperate from the alliance)