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joncnunn
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Maryland Heights, MO
Sep 2002
time: 23:29
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Even with Conquests adding allows city to grow past size 12, Shakesphere's Theater is still unpopular.
Some reasons are:
1. It's 3 techs deep into optional techs. (Requiring Free Art, Democracy, and Printing Press)
2. Democracy itself is often bypassed; even humans playing Religious civs usually don't beeline to it.
3. Resulting in by the time Shakesphere's can be built, Hospitals are right around the corner anyway.
4. It's somewhat worsened by the existing AU mod that moved the double growth Great Wonder into the Early Industrial era. (Why build a wonder allowing 1 big city, when I can build a wonder that will quickly allow all my cities to rapidally grow)
5. An annoying feature in the game that Hospitals do not disappear from the build queue of the city in which it's built. Can not be moded away because the adding a free building would add it to at least every city on the same landmass. Free Hospitals everywhere would be worse for balancing (in the other direction) than the current siutation.
Options are:
1. Reducing the cost of Shakepshere's Theater.
(Not particularly desirable, cost of it isn't much of a factor for humans.)
2. Moving the Free Artistry tech earlier, say requiriing Printing Press & Music Theory instead. (Probably wouldn't help here either, it would be competing directly against Sistines, Bachs, Sun Tzus, Leos, and Knights Templar)
3. Replace "size 3 citys" with doubles the unhappiness value of a Colossums in every city on the same landmass.
I think that would be the prefered solution because this would help allow fora stregic option. Should I go for Catherdrials and Sistines Chapel or for Colossums and Shakesphere's Theater?
Combine this with : Colosossum gets a 50% discount for Military players, and it might really spice up the happiness improvement pattern.
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Dominae
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I'm not sure the AU mod should add abilities to Wonders.
I propose:
1. Printing Press becomes a required tech.
2. Free Artistry requires Printing Press (not Democracy).
3. (Optional) Reduce cost of Shakespeare's Theater.
This might seem like a lot, but it's not just a solution to the Shakespeare's Theater problem. If Printing Press is a required tech, both Democracy and Free Artistry become a lot more attractive to the human player; I think we can all agree that Printing Press is currently one of those techs best left for the AI to research 95% of the time. On a realism note, it's always bugged me that Printing Press is a required tech in Civ3 when in the real-world it is arguably one of the most important inventions of all time.
As for the cost reduction, I would not go so far as saying the Shield costs are "unimportant" to the human player. Pre-Factories, 450 Shields takes on average about 20 turns to complete. If this figure were more around 10, I'm sure players would opt for the Theater much more often.
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Dominae
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Then there's no problem in making it a required tech.
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Risa
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quote:
Originally posted by joncnunn
Even with Conquests adding allows city to grow past size 12, Shakesphere's Theater is still unpopular.
Some reasons are:
1. It's 3 techs deep into optional techs. (Requiring Free Art, Democracy, and Printing Press)
2. Democracy itself is often bypassed; even humans playing Religious civs usually don't beeline to it.
3. Resulting in by the time Shakesphere's can be built, Hospitals are right around the corner anyway.
4. It's somewhat worsened by the existing AU mod that moved the double growth Great Wonder into the Early Industrial era. (Why build a wonder allowing 1 big city, when I can build a wonder that will quickly allow all my cities to rapidally grow)
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Honestly, I don't agree with you. The Theatre is not as unpopular as you think. It is true that it dwells deep in the optional upper branch of tech tree and is often ignored until idutrial era if one beelines to Military Tradition. But that makes perfect sense: It is a cultural wonder, not a militaristic one. On the other side, if you enjoy peaceful culture-building middle age, the Theatre is a rather good candidate for mid-to-late middle age wonder project, as it will allow you to get a huge city long before Sanitation, without any need of worrying happyness problem. The smaller the nation is, the more important. In an OCC game, it will be the fourth most important wonder, with the Colossus, Copernicus's and Newton's as first three.
In all, it is roughly just matter of tastes.
quote:
5. An annoying feature in the game that Hospitals do not disappear from the build queue of the city in which it's built. Can not be moded away because the adding a free building would add it to at least every city on the same landmass. Free Hospitals everywhere would be worse for balancing (in the other direction) than the current siutation.
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I hope that is not your major reason of change.
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Risa
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quote:
Originally posted by punkbass2000
I think PP is a very important tech for trade-bait... |
Player is almost guaranteed to research PP first in stock rules, since AI cannot recognize the value of communication trading. But in AU mod, AIs have learned that, handle the tech quite well. A similar situation is Literature.
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nbarclay
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Huntsville, Alabama
Dec 1999
time: 23:29
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I opened a separate thread for the Printing Press issue, since a lot of aspects of that issue are completely separate from this one.
My view of Shakespeare's Theater is that it's a nice toy that's worth pursuing if I can get it without going significantly out of my way, but that it isn't worth going particularly out of my way to get. I see nothing wrong with that; it adds flavor to the game, and if I don't build it, whatever AI does build it can get an advantage from it. (And the fact that I'm not especially interested means that AIs have a much better chance of getting it than if I made it a higher priority.)
Moving Free Artistry to where it does not have Democracy as a prerequisite might possibly be worthwhile if there are players who would research Free Artistry if Democracy weren't in the way but who aren't willing to research Democracy in addition to Free Artisty. The question is, do such players exist? Would the change matter, or would players still not consider the tech worth the trouble even if it were moved?
I'd really rather not tinker with the cost or benefits of Shakespeare's Theater because I think the cost and benefits are balanced against each other just fine - if one has the prerequisite tech. If my own attitude is even close to representative of how others think, it is ultimately the cost of researching an extra tech (or in some cases of trading for it on unfavorable terms), not issues of the wonder's shield cost or benefits, that gets in the way of players' building it more often. I don't like the idea of giving the wonder as much additional power as we'd have to in order to make it worth researching an extra tech for.
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Modo44
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in western Poland
Jul 2004
time: 06:29
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quote:
Originally posted by nbarclay
Moving Free Artistry to where it does not have Democracy as a prerequisite might possibly be worthwhile if there are players who would research Free Artistry if Democracy weren't in the way but who aren't willing to research Democracy in addition to Free Artisty. The question is, do such players exist? Would the change matter, or would players still not consider the tech worth the trouble even if it were moved? |
I might consider it worthwile, if it wasn't for Democracy. I don't trade for Democracy for very long for the reason, that it doesn't do me any good (too difficult to keep the peace). I typically get it only as a "bonus" part of a deal (getting everything else they have, and Democracy ontop of it, as the last thing). This means that I don't even try for Shakespeare's, except sometimes, when in a commanding tech lead. Free Artistry might be more interesting if available separately, without forcing me to buy/research so many non-mandatory techs (currently it's 3...). If nothing else, it would at least get some trading value for the AI, making me interested in buying it (AI is in love with this tech). Making it a low-priority tech (instead of a never-touch tech) would be an improvement for the AI, at least when playing against me.
Shakespeare's is a cheap wonder at the time it comes, so lowering it's cost is not a good idea. I agree that shields are not the problem here. If it was to increase happiness from Colosseums, I'd even propose increasing the cost, so that you wouldn't get a ridiculously cheap alternative for Sistine's.
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nbarclay
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Huntsville, Alabama
Dec 1999
time: 23:29
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Looking at a couple more issues:
quote:
Originally posted by joncnunn
3. Resulting in by the time Shakesphere's can be built, Hospitals are right around the corner anyway. |
Maybe, maybe not. AIs don't tend to make Medicine a high priority, and even once they discover Medicine, they won't necessarily research Sanitation quickly. So if a player doesn't care about researching Sanitation quickly (and I usually don't because my dense city build pattern doesn't need it and I'd rather the AIs not get it any sooner than they have to), the world can go without Sanitation for a pretty long time.
quote:
4. It's somewhat worsened by the existing AU mod that moved the double growth Great Wonder into the Early Industrial era. (Why build a wonder allowing 1 big city, when I can build a wonder that will quickly allow all my cities to rapidally grow) |
The wonders are not mutually exclusive, so I view an either/or type characterization as misleading. If a civ has strong enough happiness, there may be some weakening effect because Longevity can help a city without Shakespeare's grow to the size it would be at if it had built Shakespeare's more quickly. But there are situations where Longevity would actually enhance the power of Shakespeare's by helping the city with Shakespeare's finish growing to its maximum size more quickly. All in all, I don't view the Longevity issue as having a particularly significant effect on the value of Shakespeare's.
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pvzh
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Canada
Aug 2002
time: 01:29
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I too think that Shakespear Theater needs some fixing although I do not agree that anything drastic is needed.
Indeed there are 3 problems with it:
1. It requires 3 optional tech and one of them is goverment tech, so it is very expensive to trade for, and the goverment of questionable value even for religious civ.
2. It is overpriced: in Civ3 and PtW (I think) it was 400 and did not act as a hospital, so the consensus was that the wonder is pointless unless you go for 20k culture in one city.
3. To a human player 8 faces are "not needed" because at this point (finishing Shakespear) you usually have Navigation or Magnetism, 6-8 luxuries and marketplace, so your city is already in content state. Producing WLKTD is pointless because city has minimal waste anyways. Thus, for human the wonder is simply an early hospital with almost triple cost.
The best solution (keeping in mind conservative nature of the AU Mod) would be to reduce it price back to 400 shields because
1. It will bring its cost in-line with Copernicus and Newtons. Granted with that 400 shields, Copernicus + Shakespear is better than Copernicus + Newton, but considering that it is harder / less-benefitial to get to Free Artisty than to ToG it is fair to have it at such price.
2. If human player chooses not pursue this tech/wonder. AI will spent less resources to getting this very helpful for AI wonder, since it is bad with Markets / Luxury-Trading. At 400 shields it will be even more helpfull.
I do not think adding factory bonus is good thing because +8 population points is already more production and more commerce (everybody adds 8 wokers immedietely to the city, right?) besides it is "too drastic" in my veiw. BTW, adding "replace structure with this flag" will turn it not to factory, but power plant, so the bonus will not work until factory is in place.
Edit: [disregard on] :The following between the tags is wron:
We can use "pays upkeep of " option as the last resort. Probably a coloseums  would be the only reasonable choice. However, this is akward in my view.
Edit: [disregard off]
Since we at editing this wonder, what about adding GA flags to it too. For some weird reason it has none. I propose we set it to commercial and possibly seafaring (at least commercial). This would seem logical because English built it in the Real World (tm).
Last edited by pvzh on 23-01-2005 at 02:17
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joncnunn
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Maryland Heights, MO
Sep 2002
time: 23:29
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Edits to fix an error: (I had 29% of the land area, not just 20%) and updates.
I'm wondering where your getting those 6 to 8 unique luxaries from in Conquests?
I only have 3 luxaries at the moment inside my territory and have 29% of the worlds land area. (Trading for a 4th, and I'm now running cost analyis on reaquiring a 5th via trade now that my negative WW went away when that AI who attacked me was wiped out. [Ran the cost analysis, cheaper to hire a specalist in the five problem cities while building/rushing Catherdrials than pay 79 GPT. 10% slider was even worse: 119 GPT. Too few cities have populations low enough combined with the happinesses structures for a 5th luxary by itself to trigure a WLTPD. I got Bach's but not Sistines. Sistines is too far away for a war to aquire. Southern neighbor has a unique luxary on one of their border cities, but it's not the border with me, it's the one with their southern neighbor.])
Your definately right about WLTPD not being particularly useful for where Shakesephere's is going to end up being built.
A lot of people won't be adding a full 8 right, their city spacement pattern may be somewhat too tight for any core city to work 20 tiles. 16 - 18 tiles may be more of the norm.
Commercial and Seafaring wonders are a dime a dozen in the optional Middle Age techs.
I've not seen a pays upkeep of an individual specific building flag.
Adam Smiths simply pays the upkeep of all buildings that are flaged as Commerical.
quote:
Originally posted by pvzh
I too think that Shakespear Theater needs some fixing although I do not agree that anything drastic is needed.
Indeed there are 3 problems with it:
1. It requires 3 optional tech and one of them is goverment tech, so it is very expensive to trade for, and the goverment of questionable value even for religious civ.
2. It is overpriced: in Civ3 and PtW (I think) it was 400 and did not act as a hospital, so the consensus was that the wonder is pointless unless you go for 20k culture in one city.
3. To a human player 8 faces are "not needed" because at this point (finishing Shakespear) you usually have Navigation or Magnetism, 6-8 luxuries and marketplace, so your city is already in content state. Producing WLKTD is pointless because city has minimal waste anyways. Thus, for human the wonder is simply an early hospital with almost triple cost.
The best solution (keeping in mind conservative nature of the AU Mod) would be to reduce it price back to 400 shields because
1. It will bring its cost in-line with Copernicus and Newtons. Granted with that 400 shields, Copernicus + Shakespear is better than Copernicus + Newton, but considering that it is harder / less-benefitial to get to Free Artisty than to ToG it is fair to have it at such price.
2. If human player chooses not pursue this tech/wonder. AI will spent less resources to getting this very helpful for AI wonder, since it is bad with Markets / Luxury-Trading. At 400 shields it will be even more helpfull.
I do not think adding factory bonus is good thing because +8 population points is already more production and more commerce (everybody adds 8 wokers immedietely to the city, right?) besides it is "too drastic" in my veiw. BTW, adding "replace structure with this flag" will turn it not to factory, but power plant, so the bonus will not work until factory is in place.
We can use "pays upkeep of " option as the last resort. Probably a coloseums would be the only reasonable choice. However, this is akward in my view.
Since we at editing this wonder, what about adding GA flags to it too. For some weird reason it has none. I propose we set it to commercial and possibly seafaring (at least commercial). This would seem logical because English built it in the Real World (tm). |
Last edited by joncnunn on 24-01-2005 at 00:33
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pvzh
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Canada
Aug 2002
time: 01:29
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To joncnunn:
quote:
I'm wondering where your getting those 6 to 8 unique luxaries from in Conquests? |
Usually it is possible to make wars, so Luxuries becomes available for trade, granted my estimate was more for Emperor level when by second-half of the Middle Ages I have a commanding tech lead, so I trade tech and if AI has nothing useful (gpt), I will bring it to the war, buy luxury I do not really need (it will make WLKD, but WLKDs are not that important in the most cases). However, I stopped playing Emperor since I was nominated for the AU panel: do not sounds right for just Emperor player on the panel. At Demigod it is more like you describe in regards to luxuries.
quote:
Commercial and Seafaring wonders are a dime a dozen in the optional Middle Age techs. |
It was not an attempt of improving the wonder, but rather giving it some "flavour"
quote:
I've not seen a pays upkeep of an individual specific building flag. |
Ops... my bad... Sorry you are right. There are three drop-down selectors: "double happiness", "gain in every city", "gain in every city on continent". For some reason I thought that one of them "pays maintains for"
In general, I think of Shakespear as an addition to SSC, like Copernicus or Newtons does not worth much without Colossus, so is Shakespear. For Colossus + Shakespear you better find all 20 tiles even if it means hurting nearby cities, even more if Coppernicus already present. I do not place cities within 20 workable tiles unless I am 100% sure I will disband them the rest can always be "redistributed".
To make wonder "worth" without SCC it needs to be even cheaper, like 300 shields ~2 times of hospital price.
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Dominae
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The problem with Shakespeare is that it's attached to a tech (Free Artistry) that is buried at the bottom of a neglected (by the human player) branch of the tech tree. Printing Press provides nothing useful beyond trade bait, but all techs do that (or am I missing something?). Democracy is barely worth the Anarchy period. Free Artistry provides a marginally useful Wonder. So it's not entirely wrong to view the cost of Shakespeare's cost as not only as a sum of Shields, but as three tech's worth of Beakers and a bunch of turns spent off the road to the Industrial era. This cost is prohibitive. Compare to Bach's, which has less stringent requirements in terms of techs and an arguably stronger effect: it's nothing close to a must-have. Given it's prohibitive requirements, you would think Shakespeare's would have one of the most powerful effects in the game!
(A side note about OCC games: if you find yourself securing both Copernicus' and Newton's and still have time to tarry in the Medieval era to pick up Shakespeare's too, IMO you are not playing a difficulty level that makes OCC a "challenge" for you. Much as I've tried to make Shakespeare's integral to my OCC strategy, for the reasons outlined above it's that plan has never really borne impressive results.)
Of the three (partial) solutions I mentioned above, the one that addresses this problem best is making Free Artistry come right after Printing Press. Thus the overall cost of Shakespeare's is reduced drastically (no need to go through Banking), and a strategic beeline for it makes a lot more sense. I would also be inclined to reduce the cost Free Artistry in order to further encourage this strategy.
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Dominae
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If you make Free Artistry a required tech, both Printing Press and Democracy also become required for era advancement...
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joncnunn
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Maryland Heights, MO
Sep 2002
time: 23:29
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I made a slight typo when I entered how much land area I have:
It's 29%, not just 20%, and have edited the original to reflect it.
I was in one war. Got no luxaries I didn't already have out of it. 
Still, the war was useful because it gave me Saltpeter not found in my REX and when Oil was discovered the closest source was in one of those cities captured from that empire.
Getting a 4th luxary within my boundary when get me up to a minimum of 33% of the land area, more likely around 36-37% since I'd want to even up my borders and that would actually be exiling that AI to a city they captured far, far away from the rest of their empire. (All numbers post-cultural expansions.) So doesn't make a whole lot of sense unless I were to win via domination. (Certatinely an option given how far back the AIs are.)
79 GPT for a 5th luxary doesn't make a whole lot of sense, most cities have too large populations for a WLTPD with 5 luxarys, they would need 7 in the area I care about. (Sure ex-America would be in WLTPD at 6 because none of those cities even have hospitals.) There were only 5 cities that needed Catherdrials to fire their specalists. (That 4th luxary is much, more cheaper: it's a competely backwards AI, and so it costs me a tech everyone else already has [plus some GPT]) That 5th luxary only became adviable at all when the 2nd civ in this game was wiped out.
quote:
Originally posted by pvzh
To joncnunn:
Usually it is possible to make wars, so Luxuries becomes available for trade, granted my estimate was more for Emperor level when by second-half of the Middle Ages I have a commanding tech lead, so I trade tech and if AI has nothing useful (gpt), I will bring it to the war, buy luxury I do not really need (it will make WLKD, but WLKDs are not that important in the most cases). However, I stopped playing Emperor since I was nominated for the AU panel: do not sounds right for just Emperor player on the panel. At Demigod it is more like you describe in regards to luxuries.
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22-01-2005 02:17
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