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nbarclay
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Huntsville, Alabama
Dec 1999
time: 23:29
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The Problem:
The fact that Printing Press is optional makes Democracy and Free Artistry less attractive than they would be otherwise for humans to research and creates an opportunity for AIs to "waste" time pursuing an optional tech while humans focus on the mandatory techs. In addition, the idea of Printing Press as an optional tech seems odd given the integral role printing has played in the development of industrial and modern civilizations.
Possible solutions:
1) Make Printing Press mandatory. That is the most conservative solution short of doing nothing, but because Printing Press is available relatively quickly, humans could often trade for it so easily that making the tech mandatory would be meaningless. Note that we did in fact make this change in the PtW version of the AU Mod, but I don't think we ever considered the issue of whether or not to carry it over to the C3C version before now.
2) Make Printing Press a requirement for Banking (and, in the process, mandatory). Such a relationship could be shown on a modified tech tree relatively easily, and would provide an incentive to research Printing Press a bit earlier - especially for players who make Smith's a priority. The down side is that such a change could make strategies that make Banking and Smith's a high priority significantly less interesting than they are now.
3) Make Printing Press a requirement for Physics (and, in the process, mandatory). That would force players to obtain Printing Press three techs earlier than simply making Printing Press mandatory would, and would otherwise have only a minimal impact on players' choices of paths through the tech tree (since Physics already has both top-path and bottom-path prerequisites). The down side is that the way the tech tree is organized would make trying to show the new relationship really messy.
Any other ideas?
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Risa
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I think Print Press is fine as now. Shouldn't we add a "no change" choice in possible solutions?
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by nbarclay
1) Make Printing Press mandatory. That is the most conservative solution short of doing nothing, but because Printing Press is available relatively quickly, humans could often trade for it so easily that making the tech mandatory would be meaningless.
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Have to trade for something with the AI is rarely meaningless: it means less stuff for you and more stuff for them. IIRC, I argued the exact opposite regarding Nationalism, but the situation there as different because the end of the Industrial era is comparatively much further away from Nationalism than the end of the Medieval era is to Printing Press. In a close game where getting to Steam Power is your main/typical hope of gaining an advantage over the competition, having to trade for Printing Press could represent a significant advantage for the AI.
quote:
2) Make Printing Press a requirement for Banking (and, in the process, mandatory). Such a relationship could be shown on a modified tech tree relatively easily, and would provide an incentive to research Printing Press a bit earlier - especially for players who make Smith's a priority. The down side is that such a change could make strategies that make Banking and Smith's a high priority significantly less interesting than they are now.
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Not bad at all! Slightly drastic for the AU mod, IMO.
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3) Make Printing Press a requirement for Physics (and, in the process, mandatory).
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Way too drastic.
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by pvzh
I do not think that making printing press mandatory is a good idea because it will increase its trade value by 50%. AI when assessing trade value of the thech divides value of otional tech by 1.5, so you can get more from Printing Press bee-line, plus being mandatory makes Printing Press bee-line even more benefitial, since you need the tech anyway.
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So why did we make Philosophy an optional tech?
It is my understanding that this Printing Press beeline is not all that great. Do you find yourselves researching Printing Press in favor of, say, Gunpowder or Astronomy? Maybe I'm missing some key strategy here...
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The problem with the Democracy is not the Printing Press, but the government itself. Free Artisty is hindered by the fact that the Democracy is not a very good choice of the government and hard to trade for since AI values governments tech very high. |
If Printing Press were a required tech, Democracy would be more viable (if only sligthtly) because you would not be wasting any time researching a tech that does little-to-nothing on its own (including help reach the Industrial era). I'm still not understanding the trade bait argument, by the way.
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Dominae
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Yes, but in my experience that is rarely relevant for the human player, who typically has all Contacts already (or soon will - Astronomy), and is much better off keeping the AIs segregated than earning a modest amount for introducing them to each other.
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pvzh
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Canada
Aug 2002
time: 01:29
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quote:
quote:
I do not think that making printing press mandatory is a good idea because it will increase its trade value by 50%. AI when assessing trade value of the thech divides value of otional tech by 1.5, so you can get more from Printing Press bee-line, plus being mandatory makes Printing Press bee-line even more benefitial, since you need the tech anyway.
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So why did we make Philosophy an optional tech? |
Because we more than double its cost, and to reduce its trade value! Amount of research that needed still produces substantial trade value even if tech allows nothing at all. How this related to Printing Press I fail to see.
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Do you find yourselves researching Printing Press in favor of, say, Gunpowder or Astronomy? |
Since we talking about Printing Press bee-line I doubt that any of theses might be available for research as you bee-line. Printing Press bee-line implies that I am first to Theology and go for Printing Press instead of Education, so Astronomy is not a choice, Gunpowder could be a choice, but if I am not the first to Invention AI most likely already researching it, so it is not a choice either.
Personally, I do not do the Printing Press beline because it makes contacts available for trade and I do not want that at all. If I am behind and need contacts I can trade for them without need of Printing Press (AI's have it already).
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I'm still not understanding the trade bait argument, by the way. |
Do you mean this part: "and hard to trade for since AI values governments tech very high".
What I ment was:
Since I am not going to be in Democracy and want to be in the Industrial Era ASAP, it is not wise to research it myself. However, if Free Artisty is a great tech (not the case), maybe I should trade for Democracy? This is not very good solution either because Democracy allow the new government, and AI values such tech very high. This obviously discouraging in Free Artisty and Shakespear.
In general, making Printing Press mandatory will not change much in my view. It is a lot of opportunity between let say Education / Gunpowder and the end of Middle Ages to get it in trade cheap or "for free": AI do not have anything to trade for let say Banking, you traded Banking around this turn, unless this AI hopelessly weak it will get this Banking in several turns, so why not get Printing Press?
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by pvzh
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Because we more than double its cost, and to reduce its trade value! Amount of research that needed still produces substantial trade value even if tech allows nothing at all. How this related to Printing Press I fail to see.
[/QUOTE]
Sorry, I misunderstood what you had said regarding the 1.5 factor for mandatory/optional techs.
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Since we talking about Printing Press bee-line I doubt that any of theses might be available for research as you bee-line. Printing Press bee-line implies that I am first to Theology and go for Printing Press instead of Education, so Astronomy is not a choice, Gunpowder could be a choice, but if I am not the first to Invention AI most likely already researching it, so it is not a choice either.
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First, although we were discussing the Printing Press beeline in particular, I think this whole discussion casts doubt on whether this beeline is good strategy in the first place. The AI's like Printing Press enough that in a close game (where it's trade bait value is actually important) the AI is likely to get there first. Furthermore, in a close game I would rather pull away toward the Industrial era, which is worth much more than puttering around in the Medieval era selling Contacts (to joncnunn: they do fetch a nice price, but not nice enough). The whole problem with the AI with respect to tech choices is that the human player can focus on a single path that actually does something useful, and expect the AI to waste time researching mandatory techs that do little-to-nothing. Researching Printing Press brings you no more closer to anything you want to use, and so researching the techs you do want to use (and use those as trade bait) keeps you both in the tech lead and the AIs poor.
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Personally, I do not do the Printing Press beline because it makes contacts available for trade and I do not want that at all. If I am behind and need contacts I can trade for them without need of Printing Press (AI's have it already).
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Agreed. And therefore, it would be a nuisance for you to trade for Printing Press, and a boon for the AI.
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In general, making Printing Press mandatory will not change much in my view. It is a lot of opportunity between let say Education / Gunpowder and the end of Middle Ages to get it in trade cheap or "for free": AI do not have anything to trade for let say Banking, you traded Banking around this turn, unless this AI hopelessly weak it will get this Banking in several turns, so why not get Printing Press? |
Yes, this can happen. In other games, where the tech race is closer (you know, on Demigod!?) it would not be so easy. This whole discussion the assumption has been that the human player is sitting comfortably in the tech lead, which is not always the case. And if it is indeed the case, I see no reason to ever research Printing Press because it's better to beeline for Railroads and just win.
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punkbass2000
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Waterloo, ON, Canada
Feb 2002
time: 00:29
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"Furthermore, in a close game I would rather pull away toward the Industrial era, which is worth much more than puttering around in the Medieval era selling Contacts (to joncnunn: they do fetch a nice price, but not nice enough). "
Contacts have nothing to do with it. PP itself is worth a fair amount of trade. It can be your third tech. You only end up with one Optional tech, which can be traded for several required techs. This gets you to the IA faster than trying to research required techs. I would often gain Edu., Feud., Eng., Chiv., Inv. and sometimes Gun. with PP. How many of those could you have with just research of techs that you likely won't be able to trade to many AIs that have useful techs?
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by punkbass2000
Contacts have nothing to do with it. PP itself is worth a fair amount of trade. It can be your third tech. You only end up with one Optional tech, which can be traded for several required techs. This gets you to the IA faster than trying to research required techs. I would often gain Edu., Feud., Eng., Chiv., Inv. and sometimes Gun. with PP. How many of those could you have with just research of techs that you likely won't be able to trade to many AIs that have useful techs? |
Wow, that's a lot of techs.
Are you saying that it is your standard strategy to research Printing Press instead of all those techs that could actualy be useful to you, and wait to trade it to the AIs for all the ones you've missed? If so, I assume you are playing on Deity and are coming from behind, and exploiting a quirk in the AI that makes it not research Printing Press (I've never seen this behaviour myself - in my experience the AI loves Printing Press). Why do you not go for a branch lead?
In any case, I think it's far from the optimal state of affairs if the only reason to research Printing Press is as an exploitative catchup mechanism on the higher levels (if it indeed works all the time). IMO you should have a reason to research all techs for their intrinsic value, independently of your knowledge of "what the AI will research next".
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Dominae
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Well, that would not fit with his description, where the AIs researched all the way up to Gunpowder and did not even have Printing Press yet.
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punkbass2000
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Waterloo, ON, Canada
Feb 2002
time: 00:29
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Well, yes, I do often beeline for PP. I don't see how it is any more of an exploit than Writing. Understanding what the AI does is part of playing against it. Automate everything, and you'd likely not be able to beat Regent. Here's an example from AU 601:
" I checked around after getting theo. + eng. from the Carths, and was able to get inv. but no other techs. I noted that only the Egyptians had PP, while 2-3 civs had edu., most had gunpowder and everyone had chivalry, so I researched PP as fast as possible without a deficit (6-7 turns), then traded it around for the three above techs + a bit of gold. I then was able to see that nearly everyone has chem., while the Egyptians have that, astro. and MT, so I'm now researching Banking with an ETA of 6 turns."
I can get more on larger maps, and the fact that I already had few of the techs wasn't a huge factor, I probably could have gopt those anyway, as they would be well-known and cheap. I have heard about this whole thing not working with the AU mod, and I'm not sure why, but have not, as yet experienced it outside of the TSG 2, which I'm not directly playing. In any case, the above quote was from an AU mod game and all AIs had Gunp. before PP except Egypt, who was the leader and may well have had Gunp. first as well. I'm not saying PP is sure thing, but it's often a pivotal tech in my games. AS to not being "useful", I find none of the techs listed particularly useful other than Edu. I don't fight much, so Feud./Chiv. aren't needed immediately (I often don't even get Chiv.) Eng. is mildly useful but not enough to research it myself. Inv. is nice, but again, not that nice, and same for Gunp. I don't beeline to MT either. Not sure what you mean by "branch lead", exactly. PP is the best non-militaristic way to get tech parity and then lead, IME.
"IMO you should have a reason to research all techs for their intrinsic value, independently of your knowledge of "what the AI will research next"."
And, IMO, the AI shouldn't need extra units and other bonuses to beat me at higher levels, but those are the breaks. People learn from game to game, the AI plays turn to turn. That's just the way it is. As good as Writing is in terms of preqs, you'd never research it first if it weren't for the fact that the AI almost always researches it last and its expensive and can be done by 1750BC for only 1 gpt. These all exploit game mechanics and are, IME, considered optimal and nearly essential manoevueres for high-level play. Not absolutely required, of course, but generally yield better results.
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by punkbass2000
Well, yes, I do often beeline for PP. I don't see how it is Not sure what you mean by "branch lead", exactly. PP is the best non-militaristic way to get tech parity and then lead, IME.
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Funny, I do just fine up to and including Deity without ever researching Printing Press.
quote:
And, IMO, the AI shouldn't need extra units and other bonuses to beat me at higher levels, but those are the breaks. People learn from game to game, the AI plays turn to turn. That's just the way it is.
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Ah, but this the AU mod, where we actually try to improve things. "Those are the breaks" that the Philosophy beeline is the right move 90% of the time, and the AU mod has addressed that (successfully or not, you decide). And so for many other non-strategic elements of the game. Whether or not Printing Press is all you make it out to be, I stand by my statement that a tech that exists solely to help the human player get back in the tech game is the sort of thing the AU mod should address. It's great that you've learned the ins and outs of the stock game, but the AU mod wants players to think harder.
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As good as Writing is in terms of preqs, you'd never research it first if it weren't for the fact that the AI almost always researches it last and its expensive and can be done by 1750BC for only 1 gpt.
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Actually, because Writing is so good in terms of prerequisites (notably, for Philosophy) I research it all-out despite the fact that I know I could potentially still get it at a 50-turn pace. I do this because: 1) I know that the rewards of getting to Writing's further goodies earlier are worth the cost in Commerce, and 2) I know that if the AI beats me to it I can trade for it at much reduced cost. It's the fact that Writing actually does something (namely, it leads to other, useful techs - whatever those "uses" may be) that causes me to research it without any qualms about the fact that it does next-to-nothing in and of itself. If Writing were to lead nowhere (i.e. it would only allow Embassies), your comparison to Printing Press would be valid, because then it's value would only be the (exploitative, non-strategic) returns I could get by trading it around to all the AIs.
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These all exploit game mechanics and are, IME, considered optimal and nearly essential manoevueres for high-level play. Not absolutely required, of course, but generally yield better results.
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The thing is, the AU mod wants to introduce strategy at all levels of play. Furthermore, the very fact that these manoeuvres are "optimal" and "nearly essential" sort of goes against what the AU mod is all about (see above). It would be great, IMO, if the stock game were not so full of optimal plays.
Last edited by Dominae on 25-01-2005 at 12:17
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22-01-2005 20:24
at alexman *
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