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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:29
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I'm not sure in which list it goes, so I'll just state my point.
Its based on a post by Velocrix (iirc) that was referred to in one of the recent threads.
Civ III had very little stuff to do besides warfare that were fun. And warfare was made unfun in latter parts of the game.
I realized that the whole point of the game, and the reason its fun, is that you constatly have stuff to do and choose. Civ III had less of that - it was somewhat too streamlined. It had too little "sub-missions":
The caravan was killed. Trade was now streamlined through the (sadly poor and unfun) diplomacy menu. No longer will you take on the great journeys of marko polo. Now its point and click... where's the fun? So people traded special resources - but that was much less fun. All you had to do is built a road - which is a good mission, but not quite the same as making a "journey".
The spy unit was killed. All spy missions moved to a screen that was difficult to access (click on the small star under the name near the shadow over the map..) and it cost a fortune. In my games, spies had very large roles both in regular warfare and in covert operations against my supposed allies. Wouldn't want them to reach a ground-breaking technology first, now would I?
Things like sending caravans or explorers (as well as technology, wonder and space races) give players interesting mini-goals to complete.
But the problem is, we want to reduce the tinkering in the latter parts of the game, where you'd eventually have tons of caravans and tons of spies, and tons of workers....
So why not change models in mid game?
Lets suppose you use caravans in the early ages, and once you go to industrial age (or discover railroad or what ever), caravans are made obsolete, and trade moves to a streamlined diplomacy option.
You start the game with spies, but after the discovery of say, communism, you build a small-wonder which replaces spies with a streamlined "spy center".
You start the game with workers as the only means to build improvements, and in the mid game - it changes to the CtP model (improvement workshop, which can build anywhere in your empire). And then you have a special unit "warfare engineer" which has the ability to build roads and rails and forts in enemy territory, and has X defense. This would give a great opportunity for tactical play, such as quickly building a road to the enemy capital and sending in your troops in a blitz.
This could also be used for other things such as fixed governments, versus a SMAC type social model.
I think this would both be fun, and give the player a feeling of "technology jumps" while advancing through the ages - and would solve alot of micromanagement by eliminating many chores mid game, but not having the early game "too-streamlined".
Back to the mini goals - I think that as someone suggested in another topic, Civ could gain from making some improvements or technologies be dependant of more things than just a tech tree and resources.
For instance, build X granaries to get some bonus / mini-wonder / technology / unit / age advancement. This would instantly create some new mini-goals.
I think that things like religion, culture and even some concept of immigration, wuold provide strong incentives towards building a medium sized empire with good strong cities, instead of a 1 size city sprawl with a barraks and a wall.
The game should work more on incentives than punishment (high corruption, and waste).
Make the silly and fun lists compiled (most advanced nation, most educated nation, best cities) mean something, by offering a reward to the leader of such a list.
This would give people stuff to aspire towards. Just like WLTKD and golden ages.
Reflecting back, this is a rather bad post (many ideas, little order, no good direct message).
So my ideas are:
1. Bring back more stuff to do (caravans, spies... whatever)
2. Give us more goals (lists, pre-requesists other than tech and resources)
3. Make pretty criteria mean stuff (best city, most advanced empire)
4. Change models mid-game (will both reward you, and streamline and remove the threat of micromanagement).
ideas?
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:29
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More organized list:
1. Civ IV needs more things to occupy us with, at different stages of the game:
solution: bring back (and create new) units like caravans and spies. to solve the micromanagement problem - streamline the process in mid game (later on that) and remove the units or reduce their use.
2. Civ IV needs more sub goals than just "conquer nation x"
existing good solution: culture (and religion), special resources.
solution: make different rankings and statistics count for something. even create mini-quests. Make wonders / technologies dependant on gameplay things (ie - the first person to explore 70% of the earth, gets BIG WHITE BLOB wonder, which increases visibility / the first person to build 3 different kinds of war units, 5 each, discovers Combined Arms)
3. Bring back the "i'm running an empire through history" feeling:
solution: make a fuss about things which aren't important for real gameplay. make wierd lists. give prizes to best cities, create silly mini-quests (exploring the planet / arms race / technology race / seeking the holy grail / whatever). have wonder movies. mark things such as first battle, or large historical battles and so on.
4. using the same method to do X throughout the game is boring and not that fun.
solution: make the age leaps and the scientifical / social revolutions mean stuff.
start with preset governments, and after technology X - change it to social engineering
start with caravans and diplomats - change to trade screen and spy screen
start with workers only - change to PW and workers
start with city based support, based on production / food - change to nationwide support based on cash.
start with regular unit structure, change to options for war readiness, stacks and armies.
This will both reduce micromanagement each time the game phase changes, and will give a true sense of "The world is avolving around me".
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Elok
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Land of Ramen Dragons
Mar 2003
time: 00:29
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The thing about old diplomacy and trade is, they had one unit apiece, two if you count the upgrades. And all the stats that came with "units"-attack, defense, HP, FP-were effectively irrelevant for them. There was no point in integrating them into the unit system except convenience. And while Caravans made some sense, Freight is an entirely different thing, and diplomats were odd to begin with. I never pictured James Bond schlepping through the wilderness alone, dodging squads of soldiers en route. Spying is more subtle, and meshes well with diplomacy. I'd just take care to mingle it just enough to make sense, not to turn it into a subset of diplomacy like trade was. Certainly it would make sense if, after Elizabeth refused to give you Electricity, you could turn to an aide and immediately say, "I want that tech, dang it. Send The Mole to city X, pronto, but quietly." Spies are too nonmilitary to make sense as units.
WRT trade, caravans might make sense IF they could be streamlined later. Not only to eliminate micromanagement, but because nobody today turns to a neighbor and says, "the eighteen-wheeler convoy hath pulled into Hecht's today, laden with silks from the gorgeous East! Huzzah!" We need to remember that back in the day a Caravan was a much larger and more significant thing, laden with greater promise and greater potential for loss than any ordinary shipment of goods...perhaps it should be a more rare thing, like a Wonder.
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:29
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quote:
And while Caravans made some sense, Freight is an entirely different thing, and diplomats were odd to begin with. I never pictured James Bond schlepping through the wilderness alone, dodging squads of soldiers en route. Spying is more subtle, and meshes well with diplomacy. I'd just take care to mingle it just enough to make sense, not to turn it into a subset of diplomacy like trade was. Certainly it would make sense if, after Elizabeth refused to give you Electricity, you could turn to an aide and immediately say, "I want that tech, dang it. Send The Mole to city X, pronto, but quietly." Spies are too nonmilitary to make sense as units. |
I disagree completely.
As I said, in modern times we don't use caravans or freights, so with the right technology, I think that caravans should disappear completely in favour of a trade screen.
But in ancient times, establishing trade routes was a major thing, and required special attention and protection. Imagine having your trade routes (caravans) attacked by a hostile nation. This is part of the reality that existed in ancient times.
Protection of actual trade routes or creation of new ones, is what drove sea exploration, expansionism and the moves of whole civilizations.
If you streamline trade too much, it is no longer a factor on the map, and this is both less fun and not correct.
Apies however are ALWAYS needed, and they are different from a spying screen.
First, you need spies to contact civilizations you don't have an embassy in, or to establish embassies / spy centers.
There are several "levels" of spying, and only half of it can be done using a screen - because it is both unfun (too streamlined) and unrealistic.
Let assume that most information about your nieghbour states (their statistics, diplomatic relations, enemy cities, science advancement list, regime culture and religion, defense units statistics) can be obtained by something like an embassy screen, in special "digests".
There are special missions, which are either strategical or tactical. Strategical missions could be done by a spy screen (though it is not fun):
- steal tech
- steal map
but some missions require agents on the ground, such as:
- view city
- cause revolt in their cities (unhappiness)
- bribe their cities
- bribe unit
- sabotage unit
- sabotage city production (unit, building or especially - wonder)
- sabotage tech research (in capitol only)
- plant bomb
- poison water supply
A whole range of things can be done with spies as you prepare for a major war:
- get the exact types and numbers of units garrisoned in their cities
- sabotage the roads bringing reinforcements and sabotage / bribe some of their defencive units
- revolt (not bribe) their cities, ruin their existing city defenses
- sabotage thier advance towards new units / new wonders.
In any case - if it is a choise between a game which is full of "sliders" and "screens" or full of units, filling it with units is more fun - it gives you more satisfaction. No doubt though, that as the game progresses, more and more units should disappear in favor of sliders.
Last edited by Sirotnikov on 18-02-2005 at 08:13
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Elok
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Land of Ramen Dragons
Mar 2003
time: 00:29
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But they aren't units. A unit is a military weapon or company of troops, or possibly a mob of workers. A diplomat or spy is a single person, who sneaks in and out by blending in with the normal civilian flow of cities, not by dashing around easily spotted and wrecked by any passing grunt. A spy has no business in the wilderness, only in cities, and at any rate there would be little hope of catching a single person who's skilled at hiding when he's got the range of a city-sized tile to hide in.
If a spy is caught, you don't need soldiers to snuff him/her. Nor are a spy's most valuable parameters the usual combat "stats." Movement rate is the only important thing for a diplomat. Spies are, by their very nature, ephemeral and unseen, and generally operate in large but scattered numbers rather than the "mobs" of soldiers and engineers.
We don't need to have a "spy screen" as such, there's room for a different option other than unit and bland screen. Physical location restrictions can be handled in various ways without turning spies into units like swordsmen or armor. A sort of meta-unit would be ideal, which is bound by spatial restrictions but operates outside the normal plane of military combat. If they can make floating air units they can certainly put a similar effort into a thing like espionage that forms a whole facet of gameplay by itself.
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Elok
A diplomat or spy is a single person, who sneaks in and out by blending in with the normal civilian flow of cities, not by dashing around easily spotted and wrecked by any passing grunt. A spy has no business in the wilderness, only in cities, and at any rate there would be little hope of catching a single person who's skilled at hiding when he's got the range of a city-sized tile to hide in. |
So many things in this paragraph are wrong.
Spies can be caught, and are caught (though not often) in the real world.
Thats when you know that spies rarely work alone - but rather come in a team, and besides they have a whole network responsible for logistics and such (think of "mission impossible" plus include the secret agency personel).
Your notion of spies comes from "James Bond" and is not similar to the truth. There are no 'single' spies, that go on to the unknown with a briefcase filled with tricks.
Think of a foreign 'source' that works with your spy. He needs to send or 'drop' material. He needs to get money and stuff. He needs hiding places. Your spy is not a single person - there's logistics involved.
quote:
We don't need to have a "spy screen" as such, there's room for a different option other than unit and bland screen. Physical location restrictions can be handled in various ways without turning spies into units like swordsmen or armor. A sort of meta-unit would be ideal, which is bound by spatial restrictions but operates outside the normal plane of military combat. If they can make floating air units they can certainly put a similar effort into a thing like espionage that forms a whole facet of gameplay by itself. |
I really don't get why you think units should only represent a platoon or a mob.
First, as I explained earlier, spies don't work 'alone' - they work in teams and have networks of assistants and backup.
Second - spies do have movement restrictions and need to
a) physically get to and from places, often heavily guarded
b) can and are getting caught.
And finally - I simply don't like the idea that the only thing moving about on the map is soldiers.
Groups of engineers / builders and mobs of vagabonds are one thing that need tactical representation.
Long caravans and whole groups of commercial shoppers are another thing.
Special Forces and Spies are just as important.
Civ has always been a game which represents tactical and strategical facets.
Otherwise, you could streamline the military units as well, and get a game like "superpower" or whatever it is called. But that is a whole different gameplay.
The thing is that most of the 'gameplay' time is spent moving units. This isn't "great" fun, but it can be, if I have a purpuse to do so.
And it sure beats spending large parts of the game ("peace") only moving sliders, with your entire army fortified.
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Elok
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Land of Ramen Dragons
Mar 2003
time: 00:29
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Forward observation is reconnaissance, not "spying" in the sense of bribery, sabotage, etc. Best left to the military.
Team, single person, whatever. I'm aware of the differences between Bond and real spies, I just didn't feel like going into them, since for the sake of discussion of this particular point the distinctions are irrelevant. Neither single agents nor teams of them spend time running about it the wilderness, nor do they break in paramilitary-style. They melt in. The presence of foreign sources is also irrelevant, as they wouldn't be moving around with them. Sources are mined or cultivated in place, aren't they? And, logistical support or no, the point is that spies are not military and, if caught, which I don't deny they are, have no military defense at all and hence no purpose as units. When they are caught, it's counterintelligence and security that nabs them, not the army.
I repeat, they should have movement and location restrictions. That's the only part of the "unit" model that makes sense. And there are certainly ways to model that in between a bland screen and a traditional unit. Please read my posts in their entirety before responding to them.
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Elok
Forward observation is reconnaissance, not "spying" in the sense of bribery, sabotage, etc. Best left to the military.
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Most reconnaissance is indeed left to far seeing units.
quote:
Team, single person, whatever.... Neither single agents nor teams of them spend time running about it the wilderness, nor do they break in paramilitary-style. |
You have to understand the difference between 2 types of spies:
The ever present spies who exist through the "embassy" / "spy ring" which provide you with constant dossies - and the special forces groups which do run around paramilitary style.
quote:
the point is that spies are not military and, if caught, which I don't deny they are, have no military defense at all and hence no purpose as units. When they are caught, it's counterintelligence and security that nabs them, not the army. |
I disagree - an army could definitly capture a foreign group by mistake.
In any case- as you can see from another thread of mine - I resist the notion that only military units should be left as units, and I am against mainstreaming everthing to a trade system and public works and what ever.
I agree such systems should exist - especially in the late game - however the basic representation, in the early game, and partially even in the llate game, has to be devided between the mainstreamed management screens and between actual units, which are needed to represent tactical things during conflicts - such as building roads on enemy territory, operating special forces and special purpose spies in enemy territory and so on.
quote:
I repeat, they should have movement and location restrictions. That's the only part of the "unit" model that makes sense. And there are certainly ways to model that in between a bland screen and a traditional unit. Please read my posts in their entirety before responding to them. |
I did read it in the entirity.
I quoted relevant parts for reply. 
I described what I feel should be the blend between the screen and the unit, and how each should function.
I realize that you are against my idea, but I don't really realize what is your suggestion. I'd be happy to understand how do you suggest representing all the special tasks that the suggested spy unit does in the game.
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24-01-2005 22:01
This is why I want the game to either go on for a bit longer with additional tasks and cool stuff or to end when it stops being fun, ie when the game hits modern age. In fact this should be an option. To choose "Long boring game" or "short funny game". I donīt know if this has been discussed earlier, Iīll have to check the appropriate threads. 
In other words, make Civ4 the improvement to Civ2 that Civ3 should have been.
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