26-01-2005 02:19									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Odin We have a righ to be anti-Russian whenPutin is trying to make himself Czar.

You can criticize certain particular issues. But this cannot justify an outright villification of Russia in your media. In fact, this case proves the thesis that the media being free is not necessarily a guarantee against tendentious coverage of certain issues.

	26-01-2005 02:27									#32
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Yes. BAD FREE MEDIA!!!!

Hail government control media !!

	26-01-2005 02:59									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Yes. BAD FREE MEDIA!!!!

Yes, this shows that, on occasions, the free media can get itself into a vicious circle without a hope to get out of it from within system. In such a case, an external push is badly needed.

quote: Hail government control media !!

It's a pity you understood it all in a such a primitive way.

	26-01-2005 03:15									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Gangerolf you never were a superpower. nor were the brits self-aggrandising AND paranoid

The british empire was certainly a superpower.

	26-01-2005 03:19									#35
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btw, I read the entire article and was surprised to find that I agree with almost every last point. It seems to be the most accurate appraisal of the causes and direction of the Us media bias wrt to Russia.

I'm still undecided about whether it's assesment of the degree of that bias is accurate.

	26-01-2005 05:49									#36
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Summary: how dare anyone to criticise us?
(and it's all because of Poland)

Funny that someone is angry with that Russia is applauded only when it supports other states. EVERY state is. There's nothing worth applauding in defending one's own interests.
And that Russia doesn't understand it can have its interests behind the boarders, but it can't, or rather should not, treat independant states as vassals whom it may tell to which organisation they should belong (NATO membership of Central/Eastern Europe), nor try to discuss matters of some countries with others without participation of the nations involved (Poland and Lithuania in the Kaliningrad case).
Not to mention that atrocities in Tchechenia, or attitude towards Miloszewicz... well, it's not about that Russia is doing something, but about what it's doing.

	26-01-2005 06:32									#37
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I'm not sure what transcription I should use. I don't remember English one for sure...
In Polich, Chechnia/Tchechenia/whatever is Czeczenia.

	26-01-2005 06:51									#38
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This is so stupid. Most Americans couldn't care less about Russia.



I admit we are pathologically anti-French, but we don't care about Russia. The Cold War is over. Deal with it.

	26-01-2005 08:56									#39
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I think he has to mean anti-French. Americans are fairly united on our hatred of France, I haven't ever heard of anyone but politicians having anything against Russia.

I have a lot of friends that are here from Russia.

Seriously, when I was in OCS in the US ARMY the motto chosen by the class was "Kill the French!". These are the future officers of United States Armed Forces, they, their instructors, and everyone involved LOVED the "Kill the French!" motto.

This isn't a joke, the United States military would invade France with a heck of a lot more gusto and ethusiasm than Iraq or Afghanistan. And I don't see them taking too many prisoners.........

We just don't like France.

	26-01-2005 09:02									#40
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quote: This is so stupid. Most Americans couldn't care less about Russia. I admit we are pathologically anti-French, but we don't care about Russia. The Cold War is over. Deal with it.

Not so. Russia's problem, from the Yankee point of view, is that it has stopped it's movement towards global economic integration. US corporations are not given free reign to take over the Russian economy. Hence Putin is now portrayed as a "new czar". If he was selling out his own country to the US and the Europeans, he would be a "reformer".

BTW, the biggest problem with the US media is not how much they hate Russia. It's how much they love America.

	26-01-2005 10:39									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar Russophobia in the west is always my favourite subject to bring up, because every time those who try to say it doesn't exist end up proving that it is a rampant problem in the west. They fail so miserably that it is indeed quite humorous

Yes, whatever the premises are, the conclusions drawn result invariably the same.

	26-01-2005 10:49									#42
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quote: Originally posted by techumseh Not so. Russia's problem, from the Yankee point of view, is that it has stopped it's movement towards global economic integration. US corporations are not given free reign to take over the Russian economy. Hence Putin is now portrayed as a "new czar". If he was selling out his own country to the US and the Europeans, he would be a "reformer".

Economic reasons behind the phenomenon.

But, interestingly enough, the cited article (message) doesn't even take this into consideration. Furthermore, the autor may not even think it's true. However, a smaller set of premises the author uses is already sufficient to demonstrate certain points.

	26-01-2005 10:53									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo btw, I read the entire article and was surprised to find that I agree with almost every last point.

There is absolutely nothing concrete and substantial in that article. It is inconcrete, speculative and sidestepping the issue.

	26-01-2005 10:53									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Jaguar This is so stupid. Most Americans couldn't care less about Russia.

You may think so. But the outrageous behavior of your media shows exactly the opposite. Indeed, it is not in the human nature to attack so vehemently things that do not matter.

	26-01-2005 11:12									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo btw, I read the entire article and was surprised to find that I agree with almost every last point. It seems to be the most accurate appraisal of the causes and direction of the Us media bias wrt to Russia. I'm still undecided about whether it's assesment of the degree of that bias is accurate.

Well, at least you agree that the degree of that bias is sufficient to state that such a bias does take place.

	26-01-2005 11:14									#46
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb I think he has to mean anti-French. Americans are fairly united on our hatred of France, I haven't ever heard of anyone but politicians having anything against Russia.

Some individual groups of Americans may have nothing against Russia. But we are talking about your media, which is a different story.

	26-01-2005 11:27									#47
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The truth is that bloated Russian plutocrats own the media in this country. They corrupt our children with immoral programs. It's time we Americans freed ourselves from the tentacles of the Rooskie noise machine.

	26-01-2005 11:35									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc There is absolutely nothing concrete and substantial in that article. It is inconcrete, speculative and sidestepping the issue.

But you would agree that the issue does exist?


I don't see the article as a complete treatment of the issue. But it is remarkable that even a limited and incomplete set of postulates is already suffucient to expose certain essential points.

	26-01-2005 11:39									#49
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Please note that th author is not even pro-Russian. On the contrary, the author most certainly shares most of the western criticisms of Russia. What he (she) argues against is an overall indiscriminate villification approach adopted by the media. For example, the following excerpt:

quote: This is not a matter of whether one thinks that Russia is right or wrong in particular matters. Rather, it is a matter of assumptions that in most cases exclude awareness of the very possibility that a Russian activity beyond its borders is ever benign or that a Russian interest is ever legitimate. Serious criticism of Russia requires greater discrimination; otherwise there is no reason for it to be paid any attention by Russia, nor by Western governments since they accurately perceive that it's important for their interests to get cooperation from Russia. Criticism of the media's anti-Russian assumptions is also logically unrelated to whether one considers the media to be on the right or wrong side on a particular issue. On Ukraine it seems Milanovic and I both think Russia was on the wrong side and the media on the right side; yet I find the Western media's "campaign" on this subject to have been wrong in approach -- indeed, more similar to the Yanukovych campaign with its polarizing two-camp spirit than to Yushchenko's. Why did the media misrepresent its own proclaimed cause within Ukraine? We can add this question to the ones Milanovic posed.

	26-01-2005 11:42									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar Russophobia in the west is always my favourite subject to bring up, because every time those who try to say it doesn't exist end up proving that it is a rampant problem in the west. They fail so miserably that it is indeed quite humorous

Yeah, that's the core of every good conspiracy theory: assert something, and when people disagree with it sell this as proof for the assertion.

Edit: You also should add "Ha! There you have it!" or "Didn't I say so!" that would convince even more people....

	26-01-2005 12:04									#51
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Russophobia

	26-01-2005 12:21									#52
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You could at least try to be funny

	26-01-2005 12:21									#53
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I have noticed an anti-Russian bias in my media (true, pretty much every problem concerning Russia is blamed on its government until proven otherwise), but to a small extent. In general, our media cares very little about Russia. The bias against Russia is something like 100 times weaker than the bias against the US.

	26-01-2005 12:24									#54
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You failed miserably there, too

	26-01-2005 12:26									#55
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Probably. So take heart

	26-01-2005 12:27									#56
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Tass:

As for Russia's EU membership, we "hate" you guys exactly as much as we "hate" Turkey. To have a country as big as yours (or Turkey) in Europe asks the delicate question of when the EU does end.

And we give Turkey the same hints that we "hate" them than we give Russia. Now ask yourself the question: do the Euros hate the Turks as much as they hate Russia? Is it true, or is it a false conception due to self-centring and the ignorance of the debate within the EU?

	26-01-2005 12:31									#58
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BTW, Tass, I hereby require you to reply to me in this thread. Prove that the Russians can do something right

	26-01-2005 12:46									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar Because, what, Russia isn't European?

There's that little Siberia thing, which doesn't exactl correspond to the idea of Europe over here. Y'know, Europe as being the western part of the Eurasia, not as having most of its landmass in Asia, and bordering the Pacific, China and Korea.

And I don't remember the EU ever saying Russia will never ever be allowed to be a member. However, it's true it's more difficult to integrate one as big and as geographically excentred as Russia, than, say Switzerland or Croatia. This is why the EU would accept Switzerland in a heartbeat, and Croatia once they become richer, but the questions wrt Russia's adhesion are the same as with Turkey's, or Morocco's (Morocco applied for EU membership). The main reason why Turkey has a good shot is because the question has been on the agenda for decades, at the American initiative.

quote: No, I'm willing to bet that you hate Russia far more than you do Turkey, especially with the recent addition of nations such as Lithuania and Poland which like to blame everything from Mozambique rejecting diplomatic overtures to rain in Vilnius on those evil Russians!!!1

Poland and Lithuania may well hate Russia, but it doesn't mean the EU as a whole hates Russia.

Here's a story: the new negociations with Turkey and Croatia wrt joining the EU now say "there's no certainty that a EU membership will occur at the end of the negociations". That's completely new: in the past, when formal negociations started, the outcome (actual membership in the EU) was already known.
The reason why we have changed the rules is because the EU has been very disappointed with the performance of some now-members (and Latvia's terrible performance wrt the Russophone minority is one of the most prominent of these issues). In particular, Latvia loosening its terrible minority policies is only due to EU pressure. Yeah, we guys hate you. Just like we hate them Gypsies: after all, we allowed Hungary to join despite its inadequate treatment of that minority

	26-01-2005 12:52									#60
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Just curious, when did Teh Putin say that he's interested in an EU member status for Russia?