25-01-2005 02:03									#151
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus Also, the engine has Python (a very powerful scripting language) integrated in it

Python is a Programming Language not a Scripting Language. There is a massive difference.

	25-01-2005 02:26									#152
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Thanks, Spiff

quote: Originally posted by alms66 Python is a Programming Language not a Scripting Language. There is a massive difference.

That just depends on which of the 2,752,562 definitions out there you want to use -- there sure as hell ain't no standard for it. Some definitions say they're basically the same thing, others say that one they're radically different. In recent history the two have grown closer anyway.

The definition I use is one that hinges on usage: how is the language used? Is it used to develop stand-alone applications or is it integrated with something else (be it a website, a game, an OS (in the sense of a shell script or batch file), or something else entirely). The former is a programming language, the latter a scripting language. By that definition Python is mostly a scripting language, especially in the context of Civ4.

	26-01-2005 12:54									#153
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Err, Civ2 was far less complex than Civ3. The only Civ2 feature I can think of, that Civ3 didn't have, is unit-trading.

When we look at the Civ3 had, but not Civ2:
- a far more complex diplomacy than Civ2 (you can trade anything for anything, but units)
- a far more elaborate trade system
- that little thing called culture
- Great Leaders, Scientific leaders and Golden Ages
- a much more interesting Air Combat, and artillery usage

You can rightly fear that Civ4 will continue to be less complex than SMAC (actually, I'd imagine the guys at Firaxis take SMACX as an example of a product that appeals to the fanbase but not the general public). But if Civ4 is more complex than Civ3 (even only slightly), it will be a definitive improvement over Civ2.

	26-01-2005 21:57									#154
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Updated the OP with the new information that Take-Two will publish the game (and their confirmation that the release date is late 2005).

	27-01-2005 03:19									#155
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus The definition I use is one that hinges on usage:

Well, I guess if you look at it that way...






It’s still a programming language.
The fact that you can write an entire program in the language clearly makes it a programming, not scripting language. Scripting languages allow you to write extensions of an existing program to "script" its behavior, while programming languages allow you to write programs. That's the only definition that exists for the two terms.

But, just so you know, you could call it a "groping" language for all I care, I'm just trying to correct a mistake. You can either accept or deny the correction, which doesn't affect me either way.



I've heard a great deal of good things about SMAC, and quite frankly, if someone were to make a Civ-like mod for it I'd give it a try. As it is out of the box, I can't get past the hideous terrain graphics (seriously, what the hell were they thinking with that?) and the fact that it's a sci-fi game doesn't help either.

What I mean by a Civ-like mod is not to dumb it down, but rather to change the graphics to suite an Earth-based timeline, changes to tech, units, terrain and infrastructure names would also have to occur, of course.

It's just my opinion, but I believe that those two changes would have made the SMAC engine a much greater commercial success, though the name wouldn't have fit quite as well.

BTW, if there is such a mod out there that I just don't know about, please point the way. I'd really like to see what all the fuss is about for myself.

	27-01-2005 03:58									#156
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quote: Originally posted by alms66 I've heard a great deal of good things about SMAC, and quite frankly, if someone were to make a Civ-like mod for it I'd give it a try. As it is out of the box, I can't get past the hideous terrain graphics (seriously, what the hell were they thinking with that?) and the fact that it's a sci-fi game doesn't help either. What I mean by a Civ-like mod is not to dumb it down, but rather to change the graphics to suite an Earth-based timeline, changes to tech, units, terrain and infrastructure names would also have to occur, of course.

So basicly you're looking for the same thing as I am... I can't stand the graphics, but it does have some interesting ideas. You should at least try one game just to see what it's about...

...and this is coming from a guy who just finished his first SMAC game about 4 months ago

Though because of the graphics and the sci-fi I haven't played that many games...

	27-01-2005 04:11									#157
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quote: Originally posted by Adagio You should at least try one game just to see what it's about...

I did. I downloaded it from one of those abandonware sites (don't recall which one and don't really know if it's been officially abandoned or not), installed and played. Less than 5 minutes later I was uninstalling it, and wiping its existence from my drive. I could stand to look at the terrain graphics for about two minutes, tops... then I felt a sudden need to drive an axe through my skull. Perhaps if I were on some of the same drugs the Firaxis artists were on when they made those tiles, I could cope for 5 minutes, but in the two minutes I did play with the game, I didn't get anything spectacular out of it, though two minutes isn't really enough time for such things.

	27-01-2005 06:22									#158
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quote: Originally posted by alms66 That's the only definition that exists for the two terms.

Says who? Can you show me the IEEE definition for it, or any other kind of accepted standard? If not, who died and made you king? Just google for 'scripting language definition', there are literally thousands of them, which vary wildly (and endless fruitless debates in newsgroups and forums about which one is best). Heck, just google for 'scripting language': the Python website is the 2nd hit (after the PHP website and just before Perl -- languages that also meet your definition of a programming language, but not a scripting language). Or check the Scripting Language category of the Google Directory, or the Wikipedia entry. Python is widely regarded as either a scripting language or a language than can be used as such (which is the case in Civ4: it's used to expand Civ4, not to write stand-alone programs with).

And your definition is flawed: you can write entire programs in e.g. PHP, yet that is universally regarded a scripting language. Not that mine is necessarily any better. There exists no definition that's not flawed, that's kind of my whole point...

quote: Originally posted by alms66 Less than 5 minutes later I was uninstalling it, and wiping its existence from my drive.

I don't like SMAC much myself either, but playing a game for 5 minutes doesn't qualify as trying it, that's judging it...

	27-01-2005 09:25									#159
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus And your definition is flawed: you can write entire programs in e.g. PHP, yet that is universally regarded a scripting language. Not that mine is necessarily any better. There exists no definition that's not flawed, that's kind of my whole point...

First, using google to find the definition of something is a flawed practice. Due to the nature of how google works, if enough people link to my "Polish Sausage" webpage as a scripting language page, and enough people visit that site, google eventually puts "Polish Sausage" as the top scripting language site, which it obviously wouldn't be.

Regarding PHP, don't you need a browser or some other type of "web-enabled" program in order to run anything written in PHP? If not, point me to a program I can download and run that is written entirely in PHP which does not require a browser.

quote: Originally posted by Locutus I don't like SMAC much myself either, but playing a game for 5 minutes doesn't qualify as trying it, that's judging it...

I know it's taken from the web but if you look in a book it will be the same:
tried = past form of try, which means to make an effort or strive, thus tried means "made an effort or strived"

	27-01-2005 16:33									#160
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quote: Originally posted by alms66 First, using google to find the definition of something is a flawed practice. Due to the nature of how google works, if enough people link to my "Polish Sausage" webpage as a scripting language page, and enough people visit that site, google eventually puts "Polish Sausage" as the top scripting language site, which it obviously wouldn't be.

So millions of people apparently see Python as a scripting language (including the semi-experts who maintain Google Directory and Wikipedia). Yet because you disagree they're all wrong? Again, who died and made you king?

quote: Regarding PHP, don't you need a browser or some other type of "web-enabled" program in order to run anything written in PHP? If not, point me to a program I can download and run that is written entirely in PHP which does not require a browser.

http://gtk.php.net/apps/

quote: effort

That's the keyword that's missing from your 5-minute experience...

	27-01-2005 16:41									#161
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quote: Originally posted by alms66 I did. I downloaded it from one of those abandonware sites (don't recall which one and don't really know if it's been officially abandoned or not), installed and played. Less than 5 minutes later I was uninstalling it, and wiping its existence from my drive. I could stand to look at the terrain graphics for about two minutes, tops... then I felt a sudden need to drive an axe through my skull. Perhaps if I were on some of the same drugs the Firaxis artists were on when they made those tiles, I could cope for 5 minutes, but in the two minutes I did play with the game, I didn't get anything spectacular out of it, though two minutes isn't really enough time for such things.

I know the feeling. That was how I tried it the first time. After 5 minutes it was off my HD (that was around the time it was released)
Now years later I was tired of hearing about how great the governments thingy worked in that game, so I found the game again and installed it, forced myself to finish a game, so now I actually know what it is about

The game itself doesn't differ that much from Civilization, but it does have some interesting ideas, and the government model they're using is much better than what they have in Civ games...

	27-01-2005 19:52									#162
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus So millions of people apparently see Python as a scripting language (including the semi-experts who maintain Google Directory and Wikipedia). Yet because you disagree they're all wrong? Again, who died and made you king?

No one has to die to make me king, I'm king by default since no one else has the ability to do the job.

I could go on with this argument but since it's clear that no matter what I put on the table you'll never be willing to concede a point, I'll just let it go here.

	27-01-2005 20:15									#163
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Do we have any siginificant new information about the game more recent than February of last year?

	27-01-2005 20:43									#164
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP Do we have any siginificant new information about the game more recent than February of last year?

Yes, a lot. Unless you actually attended the GDC in person, or read a very, very detailed report on Soren's presentation -- then only some.

Last June, additional notes to the Powerpoint presentation Soren Johnson gave in February were released which contained loads of juicy new info. Last December, two previews appeared in gaming magazines which also provided interesting info and a few early screenshots. And some other minor tidbits of info were released through other sources (among others posts on this forum by Soren).

If you want to be brought up-to-date from last February, I recommend reading the entire OP. Some of it you probably already know (esp. from the first 2 sections), but much of it you probably don't.

	27-01-2005 22:27									#165
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quote: Originally posted by alms66 First, using google to find the definition of something is a flawed practice. Due to the nature of how google works, if enough people link to my "Polish Sausage" webpage as a scripting language page, and enough people visit that site, google eventually puts "Polish Sausage" as the top scripting language site, which it obviously wouldn't be.

It could happen - but only in the same way that I might be struck by a lightning or spontanoeusly combust. Only even less possible, that is. Wikipedia maybe doesn't make us omniscient, but neither does anything else. And though there may be better definitions around than that from Wikipedia, it's still pretty ok.

Oh, and BTW: Shouldn't you actually have the words "scripting language" somewhere around your "Polish sausage" site to make Google file it under "scripting language"?

	28-01-2005 06:04									#166
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quote: Originally posted by Max Sinister Oh, and BTW: Shouldn't you actually have the words "scripting language" somewhere around your "Polish sausage" site to make Google file it under "scripting language"?

Yes, I know, I didn't write a book on the subject, but must I really always state the obvious just to have people keep from questioning my statements like this?

	28-01-2005 17:14									#167
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d

	30-01-2005 06:29									#168
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from the latest issue of PC gammer pg 26 D.J. Release meter

not in Feb or March, like Locutus says "late 2005"
but before X mas I hope

	01-02-2005 04:35									#169
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Making pollution affect health instead of polluting tiles that you need to clean up sounds like a very good idea. Getting rid of maintenance, however, sounds rather ominous. Maintenance was a good concept and the implementation was good too. As for corruption/waste and rioting, I feel sort of neutral about it - I thought these features were better than not having them and the implementation was OK, but less then perfect, so it remains to be seen what they come up with. Removing maintenance, though, really mystifies me - it was fun, balancing and did not require micromanagement.

On another note, considering that the game is to be released by the end of 2005, there seems to be too little information available - don't you think?

	01-02-2005 04:40									#170
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Yep, usually there's tons of screenshots avaliable for a game a year before release... I wouldn't be suprised if they push the release date to early 2006 instead

	01-02-2005 05:48									#171
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quote: Getting rid of maintenance, however, sounds rather ominous. Maintenance was a good concept and the implementation was good too. As for corruption/waste and rioting, I feel sort of neutral about it - I thought these features were better than not having them and the implementation was OK, but less then perfect, so it remains to be seen what they come up with. Removing maintenance, though, really mystifies me - it was fun, balancing and did not require micromanagement.

I agree. The only thing I can think of is that they might have replaced maintenance with a population cap as in RTS games like RoN. This could replace the balancing effect of corruption, too. Instead of making it more difficult for the player to keep churning out units, you just stop him cold. If so, we'll just have to see how it plays out.

	01-02-2005 09:46									#172
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quote: Originally posted by Adagio Yep, usually there's tons of screenshots avaliable for a game a year before release... I wouldn't be suprised if they push the release date to early 2006 instead

This is a distinct possibility.

Oh well, it is better than if they released an incomplete or excessively buggy game.

	01-02-2005 09:54									#173
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quote: Originally posted by Peter Triggs I agree. The only thing I can think of is that they might have replaced maintenance with a population cap as in RTS games like RoN. This could replace the balancing effect of corruption, too. Instead of making it more difficult for the player to keep churning out units, you just stop him cold. If so, we'll just have to see how it plays out.

Ouch, I hope that does not happen! I cannot stand population caps, or other 'hard/direct limits'. I much prefer dynamic, indirect limits, such as maintenance. Hopefully they will either reconsider removing maintenance, or replace it with another dynamic balancing feature, rather than an outright cap. Maybe (hopefully) they will simply subsume maintenance under another concept - just like they are subsuming pollution under health (and thank God for that - cleaning up polluted tiles was rather annoying - much better to change the pollution system so that its effects are at a 'global level' and do not require micromanagement), but I still do not understand why they are even changing it at all, since it worked so well in previous Civilization games. There are many other aspects of the game that could be improved by changing them, but although the unexpected is always possible it is hard to see how they could make maintenance better. I hope they release more info on this matter soon.

	09-02-2005 01:30									#174
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Im hoping for the new polution model to affect health, that would be a vast improvment over civ3. The no more matinance thing has me a bit worried, although the civ3 model was far from perfect it was a step in the right dircetion. I think they can replace the corruption with somthing more efficent and realitic. What I want most though is a little adviser screen where you can change all what you civ stats like in CTP(but with more options). It would be awsome if they used that screen to change public heatlh, corruption and happnies all in a single screen. maby even manage it on a city level if you have to fix a single city.

	13-02-2005 14:53									#175
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i got an eerie deja vu just now

First off, thank you Locutus for this excellent thread. really helped catch me up to speed on where things are at with Civ 4!

I remember a few years ago when Civ 3 screenshots first were released, with the attached "don't worry! This is not what the game will look like!", and we all sighed with relief...and then the game came out....and the game was the screenshots.

If Civ 4 looks anything like those screenshots, it will not be much fun to look at in my opinion.

	13-02-2005 18:02									#176
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You seriously can't have seen the first civ3 screenshots...

	13-02-2005 20:32									#177
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The first civ3 screenshots were released early -- just like the civ4 screenshots.

	16-02-2005 01:03									#178
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I'm scared about 3d too.

quote: I still have to say that Civ 1 had probably the best map view

I have to agree. Isn't that funny. That the simplest graphics were the best. I couldn't stand civ2 at first. Took me forever to appreciate it. In fact, I spent the last year of playing civ2 by entirely modding every conceivable graphic possible.

Civ3 graphics were okay, but still hard to see. Sometimes when I dream at night, civ1 graphics still pop up in my mind.

	16-02-2005 03:22									#179
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus If you want to be brought up-to-date from last February, I recommend reading the entire OP.

The what? Sorry?

	16-02-2005 15:58									#180
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Opening Post.