27-01-2005 03:29									#61
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark thanks for the kick in the pants - how foolish of me to let the troll get to me.

It wasn't intended at you in particular, nor was it an insult to the people in general (you'd notice that I too didn't reply to his analysis, but to his one-liner).

It's only that such is the nature of troll threads. To have answers, either you post something aggressive and short, or you reply to one person in particular.

	27-01-2005 03:34									#62
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark given that it would be a humiliation to Chirac, I dont think so.

Yet the socialists are even more anti-US. You think the Bush admin. is that petty? And yet you think these Bozos can do anything worht a damn?

quote: Cause of his anti-US foreign policy. and cause the US right has an obsession with leftism in Latin America, for deep historical reasons. The CIA worked quite well with social democrats in Europe during the cold war.

The CIA also worked quiet well with homicidal regimes during the cold war, so what? Heck, we worked with the Communist Chinese during the cold war. As for anti-US policies, what are anti-Us policies? Perhaps urging some other model or self-determination? I thought the US didn't care, as long as a place was a democracy.

quote: Well, as a more successful Israeli economy could mean less need for US aid, thats a different matter. In any case the Israeli economy remains far more socialist than say, Britains. Or even Germany's I think.

Economic aid to Israel has little to do with Israel's economic necessity and much more to do with US politics and military aid. And Israel should have whatever economy it cares for, but certainly the US is there cheerleading privatization- the US certainly DOES care. Note the endless calls telling Europe to go towards more American type levels of consumption so they can buy US goods and bail out the US.

quote: Poland and Czecho dont follow Euro on social welfare? Rummy was just trying to shake off the accusation that his policy had no support in europe. Which doesnt mean he doesnt think social welfare leeds to anemia - why wouldnt he then want MORE socialism in europe - surely he doesnt want france and germany to be STRONGER, does he?

How would moe social welfar in Europe weaken the power of Germany and France in the EU? And again, the US wants Europe to start spending like the US, because the US has its own eocnomic problems. The US never shuts up about bliaming the world wide economic situation of economic performance in Europe and japan as a way to dent criticism that the US's spending spree is the bigger danger.

	27-01-2005 03:37									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin In the end it is a less dynamic model with slower average grow rates that means countries with more dynamic models will simply have the luxury of being able to afford higher margins of error to still reach the same goals.

What goals? Europeans have less stuff, that is for sure. They also have more free time and live longer than Americans. Maybe Europeans have gotten there already. After all, not everyone can be rich, and wealth inequality in the US is growing, and the ability to move between economic classes is declining in the US.

	27-01-2005 03:43									#64
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quote: If Ukrainians eventually vote in a free and fair election and thereby thwart the reemergence of an authoritarian Russian empire along the borders of democratic Europe, it will be one of those rare hinges of history where looming disaster was turned into glittering opportunity. [snip] This is an arc of crisis if ever there was one, and especially now with Putin's play for a restoration of the old Russian empire.

	27-01-2005 03:47									#65
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by GePap


Yet the socialists are even more anti-US. You think the Bush admin. is that petty? And yet you think these Bozos can do anything worht a damn?


LOTM - pardon Spiff and others have given me the impression the PS would be less antiamerican than Chirac. Spiff?

quote: Cause of his anti-US foreign policy. and cause the US right has an obsession with leftism in Latin America, for deep historical reasons. The CIA worked quite well with social democrats in Europe during the cold war.

The CIA also worked quiet well with homicidal regimes during the cold war, so what? Heck, we worked with the Communist Chinese during the cold war. As for anti-US policies, what are anti-Us policies? Perhaps urging some other model or self-determination? I thought the US didn't care, as long as a place was a democracy.

LOTM - i would think friendly words for Saddam, support for Castro, support for FARC, etc. I said we didnt care about Chavez's internal policy, not that we didnt care about anything other than being a democracy. We are still concerned with other countries for policies.

quote: Well, as a more successful Israeli economy could mean less need for US aid, thats a different matter. In any case the Israeli economy remains far more socialist than say, Britains. Or even Germany's I think.

Economic aid to Israel has little to do with Israel's economic necessity and much more to do with US politics and military aid. And Israel should have whatever economy it cares for, but certainly the US is there cheerleading privatization

LOTM Frankly I see no particular evidence of that - certainly the US encouraged Sharon to take Labor into the coalition.

- the US certainly DOES care. Note the endless calls telling Europe to go towards more American type levels of consumption so they can buy US goods and bail out
the US.

LOTM - er, thats not about social welfare - thats about the usual international currency concerns. Most countries would like their major trading partners to consume more. Hell, thats why Japan and China FUND our deficits.

quote: Poland and Czecho dont follow Euro on social welfare? Rummy was just trying to shake off the accusation that his policy had no support in europe. Which doesnt mean he doesnt think social welfare leeds to anemia - why wouldnt he then want MORE socialism in europe - surely he doesnt want france and germany to be STRONGER, does he?

How would moe social welfar in Europe weaken the power of Germany and France in the EU?

LOTM - by leading them to have lower growth rates and eventually smaller economies, from the POV of conservatives.

	27-01-2005 03:49									#66
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark My understanding that higher rates of infant mortality in the US are associated with drug use, teen pregnancies in communities without structure, etc. Which arguably are caused by social policies, but not health care.

Do you have anything to back up this BAM? It can easily be showed that access to prenaal care lowers infant mortality and saves the lives of perspective mothers and is it any wonder the US is near the bottom of the list of industrialized nations when it comes to both prenatal care and infant mortality?

In the US you get great care if you are rich or white but try getting the same level of care in south central Los Angles where no one is white or in rural areas especially in black rural southern areas.

	27-01-2005 03:54									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Do you have anything to back up this BAM? It can easily be showed that access to prenaal care lowers infant mortality and saves the lives of perspective mothers and is it any wonder the US is near the bottom of the list of industrialized nations when it comes to both prenatal care and infant mortality? In the US you get great care if you are rich or white but try getting the same level of care in south central Los Angles where no one is white or in rural areas especially in black rural southern areas.

It was pure speculation. Now what exactly does this have to do with international affairs? I supported Hillarycare in 1994. But that my side failed surely doesnt prove anything one way or the other about the desirability of democracy in Iraq or Iran, or that the EU approach to Israel is preferable to the US one.

	27-01-2005 03:55									#68
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There's actually quite a conservative backlash against Bush's speech. Interesting. An editorial in the WSJ, called the speech dreaming but disturbing. Bush went way over the top.

	27-01-2005 03:55									#69
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BTW, I've now read the article. While many things are speculation, I find the figures of the BBC poll to be extremely interesting. There is indeed a lag between the US' self-image (as a model the Americans believe most people want to imitate, at least in the big picture), and the foreign image of the US.

I was pleasantly surprised in Bush's speech that he expressedly said he didn't want to spread the American model in particular. While I think it will take time for these words to became an actual attitude, I think it shows that quite a few people (even from the supposedly most self-centred conservatives) in America are prepared to fight the assumption that everybody dreams to be like you guys.

There's still some time to go, but at least there's hope that you understand you're not the shining beacon of democracy anymore, but just yet another political model.

	27-01-2005 03:57									#70
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BTW most industrial privitizations are a good idea because study after study have shown companies do better when management is free of political interference and instead work simply for the good of the company. There are numerous examples (especially from the 1970's) of nationalized companies being forced to hire workers they didn't need & couldn't use because politicians needed to lower the unemployment rate to keep voters/the people happy. There are also lists of cases where companies were prevented from downsizing the workers they didn't need and couldn't use because in nationalized companies politicians all to often put politics above sound business judgement.

More often then not private businesses out perform nationalized businesses and that leads to greater economc growth and lower unemployment over time. There are other factors at play as well (some we can control and others we can't) but this one is a no brainer.

Last edited by Oerdin on 27-01-2005 at 04:14

	27-01-2005 03:57									#71
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark LOTM - i would think friendly words for Saddam, support for Castro, support for FARC, etc. I said we didnt care about Chavez's internal policy, not that we didnt care about anything other than being a democracy. We are still concerned with other countries for policies.

The US cares quite a lot about his internal policies and his external policies. BUt it goes beyond that- if the point of the UIS is to spread liberty, and a free state want to, say, trade with a communist regime, what is the US response to the actions of a free state, if we think freedom is paramount?

quote: LOTM Frankly I see no particular evidence of that - certainly the US encouraged Sharon to take Labor into the coalition.

The US wants labor in the coolition to get the peace process moving-it has nothing to do with approving of Labors economic plans.

quote: LOTM - er, thats not about social welfare - thats about the usual international currency concerns. Most countries would like their major trading partners to consume more. Hell, thats why Japan and China FUND our deficits.

Yes it is: a society that decide that social walfare, NOT growth, is the point has no reason to go along with some other society that has made ever increasing economic expansion its top priority. China today has economic expansion as its aim- it certainly wants to play the game. japan is trying to recover out of a slump, so it wants growth. That doesn't change my previous point- that a society like the US based on consumption will trhive better in a world of peers, in a world full of US immitators. If people are NOT immitating the USm it causes problems.

quote: LOTM - by leading them to have lower growth rates and eventually smaller economies, from the POV of conservatives.

And yet, they will spend less on US good and help imbalance the US-why we keep complaining about EU spending.

	27-01-2005 04:00									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin BTW most industrial privitizations are a good idea because study after study have shown companies do better when management is free of political interference and instead work simply for the good of the company. There are numerous examples (especially from the 1970's) of nationalized companies being forced to hire workers they didn't need & couldn't use because a politicians needed to lower the unemployment rate to keep voters/the people happy. There are also lists of cases where companies were prevented from downsizing the workers they didn't need and couldn't use because in nationalized companies politicians all to often put politics above sound business judgement.

That is an issue of political corruption, not economic management. In theory then, a public company free of political oversight beyond regularoty oversight should perform just as well-the difference being how profits are used, or if there are profits.

	27-01-2005 04:03									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin More often then private businesses out perform nationalized businesses and that leads to greater economc growth and lower unemployment over time. There are other factors at play as well (some we can control and others we can't) but this one is a no brainer.

What industrial ventures are there left to privatize in France and Germany? Or for that matter in non-postcommunist Europe?

	27-01-2005 04:03									#74
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quote: Originally posted by GePap The US cares quite a lot about his internal policies and his external policies. BUt it goes beyond that- if the point of the UIS is to spread liberty, and a free state want to, say, trade with a communist regime, what is the US response to the actions of a free state, if we think freedom is paramount? LOTM - cause we think other free states that cooperate to support freedom. Of course Venezuala can trade with Cuba if it pleases, and join with Castro in blaming all the regions problems on the US, but it would be odd to expect the US to like that. quote: LOTM Frankly I see no particular evidence of that - certainly the US encouraged Sharon to take Labor into the coalition. The US wants labor in the coolition to get the peace process moving-it has nothing to do with approving of Labors economic plans. LOTM - precisely - those are below the raider screen. quote: LOTM - er, thats not about social welfare - thats about the usual international currency concerns. Most countries would like their major trading partners to consume more. Hell, thats why Japan and China FUND our deficits. Yes it is: a society that decide that social walfare, NOT growth, is the point has no reason to go along with some other society that has made ever increasing economic expansion its top priority. LOTM - huh? From the viewpoint of conservatives (which is what were debating here - higher social welfare means higher taxes which means lower growth) China today has economic expansion as its aim- it certainly wants to play the game. japan is trying to recover out of a slump, so it wants growth. That doesn't change my previous point- that a society like the US based on consumption will trhive better in a world of peers, in a world full of US immitators. If people are NOT immitating the USm it causes problems. And yet, they will spend less on US good and help imbalance the US-why we keep complaining about EU spending.

LOTM - Why would they spend less on US goods - increase social welfare spending, without increasing taxes, and you get more consumption, and more imports. Youre confusing the labor-leader choice that is probably deeply rooted in cultural differences, with calls for fiscal stimulus.

	27-01-2005 04:06									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor What industrial ventures are there left to privatize in France and Germany? Or for that matter in non-postcommunist Europe?

Which is why we're MORE similar than we were decades ago. Which seemed so F**king obvious when Clinton was prez. Now people fantasize huge differences, cause theres a Jeezus worshiping cowboy in the WH.

	27-01-2005 04:06									#76
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quote: BTW most industrial privitizations are a good idea...

You want a list of all the privatisations that got horribly wrong over here? If only our politicians had the guts to turn them back

	27-01-2005 04:08									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon This happened again in the Phillippines and snip None of this has anything to do with the US. It's only American hubris that makes them believe so.

In fact US election monitoring, and withdrawl of support for Marcos played a substantial role in the Phillipines.

	27-01-2005 04:17									#78
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark LOTM - cause we think other free states that cooperate to support freedom. Of course Venezuala can trade with Cuba if it pleases, and join with Castro in blaming all the regions problems on the US, but it would be odd to expect the US to like that.

The US in essence looked the other way at an undemocratic coup vs. Chavez. Things with him go beyond "not liking".

quote: LOTM - precisely - those are below the raider screen.

Ah, no. The US approves wholeheartedly of privatization actions- but we have nmultiple goals, and at this point, given the mess in Iraq and our whole ME position, getting the Israel-palestine peace process back ip is more important That does not mean the economic issues are not important, only less important to us in our given predicament.

quote: LOTM - huh? From the viewpoint of conservatives (which is what were debating here - higher social welfare means higher taxes which means lower growth)

Conservatives like a free-wheeling economic model full of growth- the US can;t feed its own growth alone, so we want others to be spending like we spend, so that ever upward growth can occur. This is the US model. If other societies are not as willing to keep this model going, the US can't on its own keep it going, thus out system is hurt by the actions of others.

quote: LOTM - Why would they spend less on US goods - increase social welfare spending, without increasing taxes, and you get more consumption, and more imports. Youre confusing the labor-leader choice that is probably deeply rooted in cultural differences, with calls for fiscal stimulus.

If you increase spending without increasing taxes you are doing it on credit, which has to get paid back, with interest, and the money people lend you to do your buying is money they did not use to spend. Its not really a solution at all.

	27-01-2005 04:19									#79
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Which is why we're MORE similar than we were decades ago. Which seemed so F**king obvious when Clinton was prez. Now people fantasize huge differences, cause theres a Jeezus worshiping cowboy in the WH.

True : during the 90ies, making the economy more "American" was all the rage over here: the recipe to have an American-like growth seemed so easy: just privatize and deregulate!

This hysteria is fortunately mostly gone, at least in the political discourse (the entrepreneur's syndicate pushes for going further down that road, and is successful at having most of its agenda implemented). But I think the pause we had in the americanization of our economy is only a rhetorical one.

If Bush paves the way to a wider rejection of the American model, maybe there's something for which he'll deserve congratulations after all

	27-01-2005 04:21									#80
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why cant everyone be neutral?

	27-01-2005 04:22									#81
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quote: Originally posted by GePap That is an issue of political corruption, not economic management. In theory then, a public company free of political oversight beyond regularoty oversight should perform just as well-the difference being how profits are used, or if there are profits.

I don't believe it is corruption instead it is simply the logical out come of having politicians control companies. Sure, you could try to make a complex Chinese wall and hope that will stop the politicians from meddling but which is easier more likely to be effective? To simply privitize the company thus perminently removing the politicians primary control or to make a series of complex laws which politicians seem to always find ways around? Examples such as Renault and numerous other nationalized companies in Europe and Latin America show politicians have creative ways to get around these Chinese walls.

	27-01-2005 04:24									#82
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quote: LOTM - So why didnt you join in the Ukraine threads, when Serb and Vagabond said everything thats happened in the Ukraine (and Georgia) was the result of US action?

Because I don't care what happens to Ukrainians. They are the rudest people I have ever met.

If Putin wants to make them slaves, it's fine by me.

	27-01-2005 04:25									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Hueij quote: BTW most industrial privitizations are a good idea... You want a list of all the privatisations that got horribly wrong over here? If only our politicians had the guts to turn them back

You might want to reread my last response where I said INDUSTRIAL privitizations make sense in nearly all cases. Trying to privitize natural monopolies such as utilities or railways doesn't make to much sense and can be frought with dangers. If they are privitized then it is normally best to make sure natural monopolies are heavily regulated to prevent abuse.

	27-01-2005 04:26									#84
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quote: So Europe could have dealt with Milosevic by itself with it's soft diplomacy?

The US made the situation worse.

	27-01-2005 04:26									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: So Europe could have dealt with Milosevic by itself with it's soft diplomacy? The US made the situation worse.

Having been there I'd have to say... No, no it didn't.

	27-01-2005 04:27									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa The problem lies in the nature of America itself. The american dream was that you can do whatever you want if you just work hard enough. But that was only true as long as America was going to expand and there were enough fields were competition was low. Nowadays America is much more tightly packed and competition is high. The chance that you become whatever you want if you just work hard enough has become slimmer. There is only so much space in the top 10 So imperialism and expansion seem to be the solution, trying to create new areas, but then the other problems lie within America itself and the structure which has changed a lot. The expanding will has slowed and there is a phase of consolidation and people are more concerned with internal matters. Government and 50% of the americans still don't want to realize this. IMO America will have to enter a phase to complete reorganisation and rest. my $0.02

you asked for a response.

I don't think this analysis is necessailry relevant to the article aggy posted.

In any case, I agree that there is plenty of luck involved in the US economy such that you cannot guarentee success simply by working hard. Howevedr it probably was always a bit like this. Even when the US government was gfiving away stolen land to anybody who would settle it, it still took luck to get a good claim. There were typically more land seekers than there was adequate farm land immediately available for the would be farmer.

	27-01-2005 04:27									#87
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I still don't see what is wrong with having democratically elected politicians (i.e. the voice of the people) take decisions in a company. Especially when these decisions aim at meeting the interest of the people, such as giving them employment.

	27-01-2005 04:30									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I don't believe it is corruption instead it is simply the logical out come of having politicians control companies. Sure, you could try to make a complex Chinese wall and hope that will stop the politicians from meddling but which is easier more likely to be effective? To simply privitize the company thus perminently removing the politicians primary control or to make a series of complex laws which politicians seem to always find ways around? Examples such as Renault and numerous other nationalized companies in Europe and Latin America show politicians have creative ways to get around these Chinese walls.

What you described is corruption. Public companies should NOt be controlled by politicians, but bureaucrats and technocrats.

	27-01-2005 04:30									#89
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quote: In the end it is a less dynamic model with slower average grow rates that means countries with more dynamic models will simply have the luxury of being able to afford higher margins of error to still reach the same goals.

So some economists keep saying, but there is precious little evidence that this is true.

We should shoot all the economists, it's not as if they benefit anyone.

	27-01-2005 04:31									#90
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for the record i doubt most Americans think that the rest of the world views the US as something to emulate. Most Americans who would have any opinion at all on the matter appear to assume that foreigners chronically believe the US is spiralling down to an inevitable collapse. We are used to being dismissed by foreigners as an irrelevant dinosaur and couldn't care less about such attitudes at this point.