27-01-2005 17:49									#31
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quote: How about, the Israelis and Palestinians don't want us to?

And there have been serious efforts made so far???? I don't know of any.

I'm getting tired with this topic as well, but only because the US fails constantly and the EU is just sitting around playing with their thumbs, while glorying and praising their wonderful diplomatic capabilities.

The times of self-praising are over and the sooner the better.

	27-01-2005 17:58									#32
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I went on the "Die Welt" website and did a search for
- Matthias Dapfner
and another for
- Dapfner

This is the Babelfish translation from the German for the message that i received :

|| search "bread for the world" search No documents agreeing with your retrieval query were found. Suggestions: - trying it more general references - making sure it itself that all words are correctly written. ||

"bread for the world"... food for thought?

	27-01-2005 18:12									#33
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Oh - sorry, that's a dumbass article - and btw if you don't get it, its main function isn't to criticize Europe or esp. Germany for its differences with US policy or to call for German support of the US. This is mainly decoration, and a lot of conservative whining.

Its main function can exclusivly be seen only in the domestic context: esp. the hint that Europe sits in the "multicultural" corner. The term of a "multicultural society" has become an object of fierce fights between the politcal left and right in the last decades - and esp. after the events in the Netherlands - in Germany, and it is such an ideologic overcharged term now that it is (nearly) impossible to have a rational debate about things like immigration, asyl policy (related to domestic security and terrorism) here. Aside from economy and wellfare these are central topics here, and with this is mind the article was written. It better had not been.

	27-01-2005 18:25									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Richelieu I went on the "Die Welt" website and did a search for - Matthias Dapfner and another for - Dapfner

Maybe because he name is Döpfner. The German article is here:

http://www.welt.de/data/2004/11/20/363020.html

	27-01-2005 18:29									#35
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ooops

Why can't you guys only use proper accents like è é ë ç etc...

	27-01-2005 18:31									#36
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It was probably translated wrong in international news anyway

	27-01-2005 18:37									#37
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Oh, it´s real alright. Here´s the original article http://www.welt.de/data/2004/11/20/363020.html

The Springer Press has always been rabidly conservative bordering on neo-fascist, so it´s no great surprise that this islamophobic and utterly conservative claptrap can be found there. The islamists is the new jews, the eternal and utter evil that the good and conservative christian society must be protected from. The Holocaust is happening again, but I doubt we´ll see any death camps this time. It´s much easier to wipe them out under the flag of truth, justice and the american way...

Edit: Damn, BeBro beat me to it

	27-01-2005 19:04									#38
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This thread thus far reminds me of an old proverb (my rough translation for German) "The dog who yelps is the one that was bitten".

Great article. The truth hurts. Europe can't hide behind their hypocrisy for ever. When you all quit begging the USA to come with their military and money to solve your problems while you preach your ridicululous doctrine of pacification your criticism of the US might not be so laughable.

	27-01-2005 19:11									#39
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As long as you fall for it every time, I think it's a great strategy.

	27-01-2005 19:26									#40
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Springer Press = scumbag pornographers.

	27-01-2005 19:40									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln When you all quit begging the USA to come with their military and money to solve your problems while you preach your ridicululous doctrine of pacification your criticism of the US might not be so laughable.

Yes, only last week I was begging for American soldiers to come and fix my plumbing, engaged as I was all the while in preaching pacification to expatriate Somalis.

After all, Americans had done such a good job of sorting out the problems of Somalia the last time they were there.

	27-01-2005 20:09									#42
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And I thought you were an Austrailian. But anyway, we are just a call away. We are always anxious to please our wayward brethren...

	27-01-2005 20:20									#43
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And once again Germany and France are referred to as Europe.

Never mind that governments of several European countries hold a different view. Recognising this nuance would, after all, make our precious US vs Europe debate a wee bit more complicated, and we certainly can't let that happen.

	27-01-2005 20:36									#44
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quote: However, the world that they would have us believe in is not a nice world. Why should we believe in it

Interesting, rejecting the notion the world isn't a nice place because that scares you. Well done.

quote: After all, Americans had done such a good job of sorting out the problems of Somalia the last time they were there.

Ha, do you remember why Somalia started in the first place? Hint, it was you worshiped U.N. So even when we go somewhere after following all the preceps you arbitarily apply to us you STILL fail to antie up.

Anyone want to mention the force ratios for Kosovo? I didn't think so.

Perhaps all American operations fail in your eyes because your tenets of multilateralism are right. Not that we would ever know because you fail to follow your preaching every time you have a chance to participate in something and prove it.

	27-01-2005 20:39									#45
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quote: The author conveniently ignores the fact that the Rambouillet bargainings

Bargaining with parties currently engaging in blatent genocide = appeasment.

You didn't even have a flimsy excuse to hide behind like avoiding nuclear war.

	27-01-2005 20:46									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Kamrat X The Springer Press has always been rabidly conservative bordering on neo-fascist, so it´s no great surprise that this islamophobic and utterly conservative claptrap can be found there.

Been reading Günther Walraff?

	28-01-2005 00:21									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Admiral ... Rather, if instead of propogating violence with violence, we seek to address the conditions that make violence inevitable, we can live in a better world.

Nobel thought there. I assume you are in favor, then, of spreading democracy and freedom where tyranny now reign?

	28-01-2005 00:22									#48
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Yes, but not necessarily through war.

	28-01-2005 00:24									#49
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why have conservatives done a 360 from when Clinton was prez. Back then, they said 'no nation building' etc, now you guys cant wait to go overseas. do you not understand that you have no principles and you swallow everything that the current group in power gives to you. they lead you by the nose like an ox and you meekly submit, without thinking or questioning.

	28-01-2005 00:25									#50
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither They sold the Czechs down the river in '38. At that time France, the Czechs, and the Poles could have boxed Hitlers ears royally, even without any Brits. Instead, Chamberlain and the French collapsed.

And if Czechoslovakia stood up to the Germans in '39, WWII would have started six months earlier, or, possibly, the Nazis would have backed down.

	28-01-2005 00:27									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Bargaining with parties currently engaging in blatent genocide = appeasment.

But going to war on the behalf of ethnic cleansers is okay?

	28-01-2005 00:37									#52
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quote: Interesting, rejecting the notion the world isn't a nice place because that scares you. Well done.

You missed my point. We shouldn't reject it because it scares us, we should reject it because acting on the assumption that the world is as much of a bad place as conservatives would have us believe actually reinforces the unpleasantness of the world. Violence abets violence, hate hate, and such.

	28-01-2005 00:40									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Monk Been reading Günther Walraff?

Yes, and the fact that the Springer Press was directly responsible for the death of student leader and enviromental activist Rudi Dutschke. He was shot in the head in 1968 by a right-wing nut carrying a copy of Bild Zeitung whose cover read in bold letters "Rudi Dutschke must be stopped".

	28-01-2005 00:42									#54
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One, why is US appeasement never mentioned? I mean, having gone to Europe in WW1, as far as I know, the US never did a damn thing about the rise of Hitler- but heck, we didn;t have the guts to become part of the Versailles system anyways, so we can;t be held at fault, no, not at all.

Second: moving beyond the misconception of German military impotence in 1938, or even beyond the notion Poland would have helped vs germany in 1938 (everyone forget that Poland took a chunck of Czechoslovakia when it feel apart), the fact is that by 1939 the UK and France with Poland combined were STILL more powerful than the Germans. People seem to assume that war in 1938 is clear German defeat, but war in 1939 is somewhow forgone Allied catastrophe...WHY? Anyone care to explain that notion, cause it really makes 0 logical sense. Even if you accept that the Germans had more equipment in 1939 than 1938, well, so did the UK and France, both of which went into significant armaments programs in 1938.

Why is the failure of the UK and France to solidify an allience with the USSR prior to 1941 never mentioned? Again, why is utter US disengagement never mentioned? We can be a bunch of appeasers, but not Europeans? Specially when it is always Europeans who are the ones to bear the full cost of a huge European war? Anyone care to explain that one?

The myth of appeasement (and it is that) is a convinient crutch for the logically weak. Certainly had the UK and France taken a harder line with hitler then things would have been different, and in all probabilities, easier and less bloody. At the same time, German victories and what that entailed were due to Allied military imcompetence and the inability of Europeam states to come together, not "appeasement". The allies could have won the war in 1939, or 1940, but then, had that occured, there would have never been a myth of appeasement, and then what could conservatives have done.

	28-01-2005 00:43									#55
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro Yes, but not necessarily through war.

BeBro, at time war is necessary. I think that is one of Dophner's points. Categorically rulling out war makes diplomacy ineffective.

	28-01-2005 00:45									#56
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Europe does not categorically rule it out

	28-01-2005 00:46									#57
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Spiffor: There have been numerous books written on the subject of appeasement during the run up to WW2 and most of them used the personal writtings of people in all the governments involved and/or interviewed the people involved. The conclusion reached time after time is that intially Hitler was afraid that the UK and France would come after him militarially if he kept breaking agreements and siezing territory. Slowly though Hitler realized that the British and French weren't going to stand up to him and Hitler believed he could keep demanding concessions. They caved on the reoccupation of the Rhineland, they caved on the annexation of Austria, they caved on the annexation of the Sudtenland (selling out their own ally), and they caved when Czechoslovakia was broken in two and Czechlands were annexed. Why would Hitler not think the Allies would cave again on the Danzieg corridor?

	28-01-2005 00:48									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia why have conservatives done a 360 from when Clinton was prez. Back then, they said 'no nation building' etc, now you guys cant wait to go overseas. do you not understand that you have no principles and you swallow everything that the current group in power gives to you. they lead you by the nose like an ox and you meekly submit, without thinking or questioning.

I supported everything Clinton did in foreign policy. Had he still been president, he too would have invaded Afghanistan and gone after Saddam.

True, there were some Republicans who opposed Clinton's wars; but I think they did so on petty partisan grounds. I thought they were wrong then and I think they were wrong now.

But this does highlight the fact that a lot of the carping against Bush by Democrats is pure partisanship.

	28-01-2005 00:50									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I supported everything Clinton did in foreign policy. Had he still been president, he too would have invaded Afghanistan and gone after Saddam. True, there were some Republicans who opposed Clinton's wars; but I think they did so on petty partisan grounds. I thought they were wrong then and I think they were wrong now. But this does highlight the fact that a lot of the carping against Bush by Democrats is pure partisanship.

You really think he would have invaded Iraq and gone after Saddam? I hardly think so. I don't even think any other Republican president would have done it.

	28-01-2005 00:54									#60
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Jimmy, he almost did so in 1998. If you think Clinton would have let Saddam off the hook after a few more years of defiance of UN resolutions, I think you clearly underestimate Clinton.