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pchang
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Cupertino?
Aug 1999
time: 05:28
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I received the following e-mail. True or Urban Legend?
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Matthias Dapfner, Chief Executive of the huge German publisher Axel Springer AG, has written a blistering attack in DIE WELT, Germany's largest daily newspaper, against the timid reaction of Europe in the face of the Islamic threat.
EUROPE - THY NAME IS COWARDICE
(Commentary by Mathias Dapfner CEO, Axel Springer, AG)
A few days ago Henry Broder wrote in Welt am Sonntag, "Europe - your family name is appeasement." It's a phrase you can't get out of your head because it's so terribly true.
Appeasement cost millions of Jews and non-Jews their lives as England and France, allies at the time, negotiated and hesitated too long before they noticed that Hitler had to be fought, not bound to toothless agreements.
Appeasement legitimized and stabilized Communism in the Soviet Union, then East Germany, then all the rest of Eastern Europe where for decades, inhuman, suppressive, murderous governments were glorified as the ideologically correct alternative to all other possibilities.
Appeasement crippled Europe when genocide ran rampant in Kosovo, and even though we had absolute proof of ongoing mass-murder, we Europeans debated and debated and debated, and were still debating when finally the Americans had to come from halfway around the world, into Europe yet again, and do our work for us.
Rather than protecting democracy in the Middle East, European appeasement, camouflaged behind the fuzzy word "equidistance," now countenances suicide bombings in Israel by fundamentalist Palestinians.
Appeasement generates a mentality that allows Europe to ignore nearly 500,000 victims of Saddam's torture and murder machinery and, motivated by the self-righteousness of the peace-movement, has the gall to issue bad grades to George Bush... Even as it is uncovered that the loudest critics of the American action in Iraq made illicit billions, no, TENS of billions, in the corrupt U.N. Oil-for-Food program.
And now we are faced with a particularly grotesque form of appeasement... How is Germany reacting to the escalating violence by Islamic fundamentalists in Holland and elsewhere? By suggesting that we really should have a "Muslim Holiday" in Germany.
I wish I were joking, but I am not. A substantial fraction of our (German) Government, and if the polls are to be believed, the German people, actually believe that creating an Official State "Muslim Holiday" will somehow spare us from the wrath of the fanatical Islamists.
One cannot help but recall Britain's Neville Chamberlain waving the laughable treaty signed by Adolf Hitler, and declaring European "Peace in our time".
What else has to happen before the European public and its political leadership get it? There is a sort of crusade underway, an especially perfidious crusade consisting of systematic attacks by fanatic Muslims, focused on civilians, directed against our free, open Western societies, and intent upon Western Civilization's utter destruction.
It is a conflict that will most likely last longer than any of the great military conflicts of the last century - a conflict conducted by an enemy that cannot be tamed by "tolerance" and "accommodation" but is actually spurred on by such gestures, which have proven to be, and will always be taken by the Islamists for signs of weakness.
Only two recent American Presidents had the courage needed for anti-appeasement: Reagan and Bush.
His American critics may quibble over the details, but we Europeans know the truth. We saw it first hand: Ronald Reagan ended the Cold War, freeing half of the German people from nearly 50 years of terror and virtual slavery. And Bush, supported only by the Social Democrat Blair, acting on moral conviction, recognized the danger in the Islamic War against democracy. His place in history will have to be evaluated after a number of years have passed.
In the meantime, Europe sits back with charismatic self-confidence in the multicultural corner, instead of defending liberal society's values and being an attractive center of power on the same playing field as the true great powers, America and China.
On the contrary - we Europeans present ourselves, in contrast to those "arrogant Americans", as the World Champions of "tolerance", which even (Germany's Interior Minister) Otto Schily justifiably criticizes. Why? Because we're so moral? I fear it's more because we're so materialistic, so devoid of a moral compass.
For his policies, Bush risks the fall of the dollar, huge amounts of additional national debt, and a massive and persistent burden on the American economy - because unlike almost all of Europe, Bush realizes what is at stake - literally everything.
While we criticize the "capitalistic robber barons" of America because they seem too sure of their priorities, we timidly defend our Social Welfare systems. Stay out of it! It could get expensive! We'd rather discuss reducing our 35-hour workweek or our dental coverage, or our 4 weeks of paid vacation... Or listen to TV pastors preach about the need to "reach out to terrorists. To understand and forgive".
These days, Europe reminds me of an old woman who, with shaking hands, frantically hides her last pieces of jewelry when she notices a robber breaking into a neighbor's house.
Appeasement? Europe, thy name is Cowardice.
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Dr Strangelove
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I seem to recall in my history studies a time when Europe wasn't so reticent about getting involved in th4e affairs of other people. It wasn't very pretty.
It should be poointed out that when England and France decided to appease Germany in 1939 they immediately began to rebuild their neglected militaries.
You might also remember that the division of Europe during the cold war was backed up by nuclear weapons. The fact that we were able to maintain a standoff throuhout that era without nuking oiurselves into oblivion actually offers a glimer of hope for humanity.
The Warsaw Pact collapsed due to decades of bad management. Ronlad Reagan was only one factor in the outcome of the cold war.
Reaching out, understanding, and forgiving are part and parcel of Christianity. There have been times when groups have tried to strip these traits out of the religion, and the results haven't been pretty.
OTOH if you're going to create a Muslim holiday I think you'd better convene a meeting of the top clerics in your country and get their opinion of what would be appropriate. Muslims can get pretty touchy when non-muslims try to tell them what their religion is all about.
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Admiral
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of the peace and coexistance movement
Feb 2001
time: 00:28
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Whether or not it was actually written by who it is acredited too, it is a typically hardline conservative rant. They insist in believing that they are locked in a struggle for their very survival, an epic battle between good and evil, where there can be no compromise, where there can be no negotiating. Ironically, the more they base their policy upon this world-view, the more true their worldview becomes.
However, the world that they would have us believe in is not a nice world. Why should we believe in it, and by believing in it, make it so? Rather, if instead of propogating violence with violence, we seek to address the conditions that make violence inevitable, we can live in a better world.
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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:28
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This text is pure crap. Here's why
quote:
Originally posted by pchang
A few days ago Henry Broder wrote in Welt am Sonntag, "Europe - your family name is appeasement." It's a phrase you can't get out of your head because it's so terribly true.
Appeasement cost millions of Jews and non-Jews their lives as England and France, allies at the time, negotiated and hesitated too long before they noticed that Hitler had to be fought, not bound to toothless agreements. |
If anything, hitler's rise to power wasn't due to appeasement, but to the arrogance of the Versailles treaty. It's not appeasement that has costed the lives of millions, but the murderous tendencies of hitler. The war might have been won more quickly if Britain and France declared war sooner, but it's not like hitler was defenseless in 1938. And it's not like hitler wouldn't have started the holocaust.
quote:
Appeasement legitimized and stabilized Communism in the Soviet Union, then East Germany, then all the rest of Eastern Europe where for decades, inhuman, suppressive, murderous governments were glorified as the ideologically correct alternative to all other possibilities. |
I don't know for you, but given the choice between appeasement and a nuclear holocaust, I prefer appeasement. The Yanks and the Sovs seem to have the same idea, considering that we were united in our common fear of this possibility. Maybe that's the whole world that is a coward when there's this kind of stake, I don't know.
quote:
Appeasement crippled Europe when genocide ran rampant in Kosovo, and even though we had absolute proof of ongoing mass-murder, we Europeans debated and debated and debated, and were still debating when finally the Americans had to come from halfway around the world, into Europe yet again, and do our work for us. |
The author conveniently ignores the fact that the Rambouillet bargainings, at the premature end of which NATO started the war, was depicted as the last diplomatic chance. The Yanks mode the war happen faster, but it's not like the idea was alien to us.
quote:
Rather than protecting democracy in the Middle East, European appeasement, camouflaged behind the fuzzy word "equidistance," now countenances suicide bombings in Israel by fundamentalist Palestinians. |
I fail to see the relationship between Europe and fundamentalist Palestinians. If one really wanted to blame Europe for the current situation, one may blame the Brits for their handling of the situation 100-60 years ago, but that's about it. The Israel / Palestine conflict takes its specificity from the fact that it's almost entirely motivated by internal dynamics. There's some interference from the US and Arabic countries, but that's about it.
quote:
Appeasement generates a mentality that allows Europe to ignore nearly 500,000 victims of Saddam's torture and murder machinery and, motivated by the self-righteousness of the peace-movement, has the gall to issue bad grades to George Bush... |
Yeah, right, we didn't go after Saddam out of cowardice. We trembled in fear at the word "Saddam", wondering when he'll use his gigantic armies to invade us all.
Our countries' diplomacy's support was certainly cynical. But the reason why the people opposed the war was not because they were bribed. It was because they loathe war.
quote:
And now we are faced with a particularly grotesque form of appeasement... How is Germany reacting to the escalating violence by Islamic fundamentalists in Holland and elsewhere? By suggesting that we really should have a "Muslim Holiday" in Germany. |
So, now we're arriving to what this paper is about. The boss of the company that produces the fiercely conservative tabloid Bild doesn't want to see old Christian Germany having an official holiday derived from a religion he dislikes.
quote:
I wish I were joking, but I am not. A substantial fraction of our (German) Government, and if the polls are to be believed, the German people, actually believe that creating an Official State "Muslim Holiday" will somehow spare us from the wrath of the fanatical Islamists.
One cannot help but recall Britain's Neville Chamberlain waving the laughable treaty signed by Adolf Hitler, and declaring European "Peace in our time". |
1. I strongly doubt the debate looks nearly like that. More probably, the German government is thinking about ways to better integrate its Muslim population so that fewer of them sink in radical Islam.
2. So creating a Muslim Holiday is in the same style (I won't even say "the same importance") as giving up Czekoslowakia? Interesting.
quote:
What else has to happen before the European public and its political leadership get it? There is a sort of crusade underway, an especially perfidious crusade consisting of systematic attacks by fanatic Muslims, focused on civilians, directed against our free, open Western societies, and intent upon Western Civilization's utter destruction. |
What else has to happen before conservative press moguls get it? Fanaticism is fueled by people, and we should make sure that as few people as possible should be lured by it - instead of blindingly continuing to alienate them.
quote:
It is a conflict that will most likely last longer than any of the great military conflicts of the last century - a conflict conducted by an enemy that cannot be tamed by "tolerance" and "accommodation" but is actually spurred on by such gestures, which have proven to be, and will always be taken by the Islamists for signs of weakness. |
ALERT ALERT - So we shouldn't show tolerance to Muslims as a whole, as it will only serve the fanatics. This statement either means that 1) moderate Muslims will remain so for the rest of their lives, while radical Muslims will remain so for the rest of their lives ; or 2) all Muslims are the enemy and they're encouraged by gestures of tolerance.
These Kulturkampf arguments draw on prejudices that are worrisome, don't you think?
quote:
Only two recent American Presidents had the courage needed for anti-appeasement: Reagan and Bush.
His American critics may quibble over the details, but we Europeans know the truth. We saw it first hand: Ronald Reagan ended the Cold War, freeing half of the German people from nearly 50 years of terror and virtual slavery. And Bush, supported only by the Social Democrat Blair, acting on moral conviction, recognized the danger in the Islamic War against democracy. His place in history will have to be evaluated after a number of years have passed. |
Reagan didn't end the cold war any more than the Pope did. The USSR fell for internal reasons, mostly economic. Reagan's rethorics were mostly aimed at restoring the shattered American confidence. And Bush did recognize the danger in the Islamic War only after Sept. 11. Prior to that, he developed an isolationist platform.
quote:
In the meantime, Europe sits back with charismatic self-confidence in the multicultural corner, instead of defending liberal society's values and being an attractive center of power on the same playing field as the true great powers, America and China. |
So let me get this straight: by creating a Muslim holiday, Germany is letting "liberal society's values" being trampled?
quote:
On the contrary - we Europeans present ourselves, in contrast to those "arrogant Americans", as the World Champions of "tolerance", which even (Germany's Interior Minister) Otto Schily justifiably criticizes. Why? Because we're so moral? I fear it's more because we're so materialistic, so devoid of a moral compass. |
This is certainly true. We lack the zealotry of both the American government and Muslim fanatics.
quote:
For his policies, Bush risks the fall of the dollar, huge amounts of additional national debt, and a massive and persistent burden on the American economy - because unlike almost all of Europe, Bush realizes what is at stake - literally everything. |
The fall of the dollar and the massive expanses have of course nothing to do with a demand-side economic policy  A kind of policy that his conservative rag opposes when done in Germany, btw.
quote:
While we criticize the "capitalistic robber barons" of America because they seem too sure of their priorities, we timidly defend our Social Welfare systems. Stay out of it! It could get expensive! We'd rather discuss reducing our 35-hour workweek or our dental coverage, or our 4 weeks of paid vacation... Or listen to TV pastors preach about the need to "reach out to terrorists. To understand and forgive". |
That's funny, because the Yanks have plenty of internal debates about domestic policies. The tax cuts were all the rage in recent past, and the suggested privatization of socisal security is the main topic these days.
quote:
These days, Europe reminds me of an old woman who, with shaking hands, frantically hides her last pieces of jewelry when she notices a robber breaking into a neighbor's house.
Appeasement? Europe, thy name is Cowardice. |
Yeah, more emotional appeals. But nothing surprising from the guy who publishes the Bild
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Proteus_MST
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quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
Actually, most of the mess was created by France and the UK, but then not having been invited to have colonies anywhere that mattered that might be lost in Germany. |
AFAIR it where the USA who supported Saddam during the 80s (and gave him WMDs) and who trained and equipped the Taliban (and Osama bin Laden) to counter the sowjet occupation of Afghanistan.
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Atahualpa
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Hawthrone
Mar 1999
time: 06:28
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HA! Basically this formulated in my mind as well and in a post in the Arnie thread. I think this guy definately got a point!
I agree that he makes some strange assumptions and the article is rather emotional than rational, but still THIS is the first important step into a new Europe!!
I agree with him that Europe is just stunned. It's foreign politics are that of minimal intervention, we try to do as little as possible, because we are absolutely unsure about ourselves. We've had a long history wars, bombs and fights. I can agree when someone says that we are tired about it.
But some still have the will to fight and mostly this is seen as dangerous, because we might turn back into a nazi regime and EVERYBODY (politicians) is constantly afraid of this and the people feel this. I think this is just one reason why the NPD in germany is getting popular again.
Making this worse, the US pushes forward everytime, but their resulting situations are not one to be desired, thus proving Europeans right that the US way is wrong.
Now, first I agree that currently it wouldn't be good doing large international interventions if you are unsure about yourself, the whole intervention might cripple due to internal crisis. BUT, at some point we have to face this, we need stronger politics and speak a common language to the outside world.
There is always the argument that we'd do stuff diplomatically and that we are successful therein. But that's just not true and nobody does anything diplomatically. Why don't we host talks between israel and palestinia??? We search for diplomatic solutions, but it was Clinton who tried it. Basically this is just a damn execuse.
And overall I really hope we don't do anything with America on our side. And especially not the current America that is ruled by trigger happy military and a dumbass president, who just ****s up wherever he can. The US just tries to divide Europe and they are fine with us when we are stunned, because they can use this situation for themselves. They are not going to help us!
Europe can expect NOTHING of America, just like America expects nothing of us anymore.
Anyway, I am glad someone brings this point to the public It's very important to do some thinking about the situation of Europe in the world and overcome our past.
There will be of course heavy resentments against this development, but the move has just started and nobody can hold it back! Hooray!
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27-01-2005 09:14
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