28-01-2005 09:51									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Solomwi Or you could set b) with the actual conditions that preclude the other integers, thereby making it a true and satisfactory explanation. Example: a) the creator made it so b) 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9 are greater than 3 by themselves, and 3 needs no other number added to it, so 1 and 2 are the only possibilities. Further, 1+1 is too small and 2+2 is too large. b) seems like a good answer to me.

But with answer a) present, answer b) just looks silly. Why do we go through all these trouble when there is a simple answer? Let me see... perhaps to feed some scientists so that they can live on it?

	28-01-2005 09:54									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Xin Yu But with answer a) present, answer b) just looks silly. Why do we go through all these trouble when there is a simple answer? Let me see... perhaps to feed some scientists so that they can live on it?

Let me see... You also believe that the sun and planets revolve around a flat Earth, because those too are simpler answers correct?

Error. Does not compute.

	28-01-2005 09:56									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Xin Yu But with answer a) present, answer b) just looks silly. Why do we go through all these trouble when there is a simple answer? Let me see... perhaps to feed some scientists so that they can live on it?

Simple - a) is not an answer.

Knowledge is accumulated by those who rejected such silly notions, not by those who advocated them.

Just think, you wouldn't have a job if people were satisied with answers such as "god did it." We would all still be sitting in caves.

	28-01-2005 10:01									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Simple - a) is not an answer.

No. a) is an answer superior to b) since b) requires using some hidden information about the integer system. The conditions used in b): 4 - 9 > 3 were not necessary in solving this problem. Hence b) is inferior to a), which used less conditions.

	28-01-2005 10:07									#95
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So an answer based on nothing to you is superior than one which requires knowledge?

OK. Oh, and for 50 bucks I can act as your doctor. That pain you feel? Hmm, let me see..Its god's will, stop complaining!

	28-01-2005 10:41									#96
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quote: Originally posted by GePap So an answer based on nothing to you is superior than one which requires knowledge? OK. Oh, and for 50 bucks I can act as your doctor. That pain you feel? Hmm, let me see..Its god's will, stop complaining!

Come on, that was meant to be a joke. I said it was a joke when posting the question. Why don't you just laugh instead of being so serious?

Don't you understand that you can never persuade me, nor can I persuade you? Now follow me: ha ha ha

	28-01-2005 11:02									#97
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quote: First of all, the ability to cook or worship divine beings aren't hard-wired into us.

While worship of divine beings might not be a necessary part of the human condition, religion certainly is.

	28-01-2005 11:12									#98
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Religion isn't a necessary part of the human condition.

	28-01-2005 11:14									#99
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Thank you, I thought I read that wrong; that my eyes had gone bad.

	28-01-2005 11:22									#100
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quote: Originally posted by DanS While worship of divine beings might not be a necessary part of the human condition, religion certainly is.

DanS, how are you? Long time no see!

	28-01-2005 11:27									#101
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quote: Don't you understand that you can never persuade me, nor can I persuade you? Now follow me: ha ha ha

Well that's producive. Why did you start the thread then.

And you haven't given any reason why a "simple" answer that doesn't use "information" is superior. If you don't have that all you have are bald assertions and logical fallacies.

	28-01-2005 11:35									#102
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DanS has been around...

blah!

I ask Darwin, "explain homosexuality."

Washusal!""

	28-01-2005 11:44									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Boshko Well that's producive. Why did you start the thread then.

Because I feel like it

quote: Originally posted by Boshko And you haven't given any reason why a "simple" answer that doesn't use "information" is superior. If you don't have that all you have are bald assertions and logical fallacies.

OK, my personal opinion: suppose your 9 year old nephew asks you this question, how do you answer him? If you use a) it ends here. If you use b) then get ready for at least 3 follow- up questions. So the rule of thumb is: do not introduce new concepts when answer a question unless absolutely necessary. Answer a) is not incorrect, it is just not detailed. You give this answer and a lot of people will be satisfied. For those who are not, give them a book and let them read since they need to learn more before they can apprehend more complicated answers.

Of course, since I was the one who gave the question, my opinion should be the final verdict. Now follow me: ha ha ha

	28-01-2005 12:11									#104
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quote: DanS, how are you? Long time no see!

It's good to see you back, Xin! Good luck on the green card situation. It's ridiculous that the government isn't more discerning. But it's nice to know that the pressure's off with regard to your work situation.

Like you, I haven't played Civ in a couple of years. Civ 3 got old after a couple of weeks of play. Maybe Civ 4 will be fun.

quote: Religion isn't a necessary part of the human condition.

And I disagree. It's no accident that religion has been a prominent part of every human civilization and tribe.

	28-01-2005 12:27									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Xin Yu Sincerely, from my limited knowledge, this theory has a lot of problems (of course you can still defend it against any question I raised against it. In fact I think any theory can be defended by a group of clever people, for example the dream team who defended OJ. ) One single fact is enough to throw it away: Earth is the only planet with life in its affinity. Other planets and satellites, although not as good as the earth, some of them must at least still be good enough for a single-cell creature? So, I don't believe in evolution UNLESS there is evidence to show that other planets have certain kind of life forms.

No offense, but ignorance doesn't prove a theory wrong.

	28-01-2005 12:37									#106
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi No offense, but ignorance doesn't prove a theory wrong.

Well, I beg to differ. To prove a theory may require good knowledge of it, but to disprove one only needs one counter example to any of the claims of the theory. That does not need very good knowledge at all.

	28-01-2005 13:06									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Xin Yu Well, I beg to differ. To prove a theory may require good knowledge of it, but to disprove one only needs one counter example to any of the claims of the theory. That does not need very good knowledge at all.

While that maybe true, you have to know the theory to provide a real counterexample, instead of one that's seems to be a counterexample.

	28-01-2005 13:09									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Xin Yu If you use a) it ends here. If you use b) then get ready for at least 3 follow- up questions. So the rule of thumb is: do not introduce new concepts when answer a question unless absolutely necessary.

That's dumb. Nothing wrong with "we don't know" as an honest answer.

quote: Originally posted by Xin Yu Answer a) is not incorrect, it is just not detailed.

It is incorrect to invoke something you know doesn't exist - or at least something that you can't provide any evidence.

quote: Originally posted by Xin Yu You give this answer and a lot of people will be satisfied.

It's good to give wrong answers to people?

	28-01-2005 13:30									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Xin Yu OK, my personal opinion: suppose your 9 year old nephew asks you this question, how do you answer him? If you use a) it ends here. If you use b) then get ready for at least 3 follow- up questions. So the rule of thumb is: do not introduce new concepts when answer a question unless absolutely necessary. Answer a) is not incorrect, it is just not detailed. You give this answer and a lot of people will be satisfied. For those who are not, give them a book and let them read since they need to learn more before they can apprehend more complicated answers.

So I should you advocate teaching bull to young people, so that they don't become pesky with questions?

I can understand that parents will sometimes not give proper info to their kids ("clouds are made of strands of cotton that wanted to look good" or something like that) because teaching a kid can be tiresome. It's human, but it's not morally right. And you advocate doing so? (i.e. considering it's the right thing to do?)

	28-01-2005 14:07									#110
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If you teach your kids to think for themselves, they may leave your religion. Better make sure they don't waste their time thinking about how things work. God made everything, that's all they ever need to know

	28-01-2005 14:09									#111
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I have just discovered how I'll educate my kids

Everytime they ask me why something good happens, I'll tell them the benevolent Marx has created it And everytime they ask me about something bad, I'll explain it's the evil capitalists' fault

It's a bit undetailed, but it's true!

	28-01-2005 14:33									#112
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Few things in this world are sadder than an uninquisitive person...

My parents didn't force their religion on me like their parents did them. While they taught me right from wrong, I was left to my own devices to explore the world. I believe in Tao and from Tao came God and thus all things. Tao isn't some supernatural force, it simply Is. It seperates Is from Is Not, Somethingness from Nothingness, Existence from Oblivion. I believe God made the seed of the universe and wrote its rules, but I believe God let the universe work on its own after that by setting things in motion with the Big Bang. I DO NOT discount the possibility that God has influenced the universe's developement during the past 12-18 billion years, but I DO discount the need for God influencing that developement. God made the universe well-enough that it doesn't require further tinkering on God's part. It is left to us to discover its workings and treat all of Tao with the respect and care it is due.

	28-01-2005 15:27									#113
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quote: but I DO discount the need for God influencing that developement.

I must disagree with this statement, when human beings ignore the existence of God completely as a society, they begin to commit great evil, examples being communism under Stalin and Mao, Pol Pot in Cambodia, Hitler in Nazi Germany. There is a need for people in every society who believe in God and obey his will, or the society will degenerate and commit great evil

	28-01-2005 16:05									#114
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Adolph Hitler was a Christian (well, in claim only). He perverted the religion. In fact, most of the world's great evils were done in the name of religion or God. You might want to take a closer look at history before claiming the lack of God will make society crumble...

	28-01-2005 16:08									#115
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quote: Originally posted by trev I must disagree with this statement, when human beings ignore the existence of God completely as a society, they begin to commit great evil, examples being communism under Stalin and Mao, Pol Pot in Cambodia, Hitler in Nazi Germany. There is a need for people in every society who believe in God and obey his will, or the society will degenerate and commit great evil

Stalin was training to be a priest, and Hitler and Goebbels were Catholics. Plenty of churchmen and women supported the Nazi Party in Germany and Mussolini's Fascisti.

Should I go on to list the great evils committed in the name of religion?



Perhaps you may have heard of the 'Holy' Inqusition, for instance.

I think we can all be grateful that mechanization and industrialization weren't available to the three great Inqusitions, nor indeed to the crusading movements.

As it was, the Teutonic Knights did a pretty good job of masscring non-believers in the lands bordering the Baltic Sea, and those warriors for god in the Holy Land were quite adept at killing Muslims and Jews, and Christians who didn't happen to be 'their' kind of Christian. They 'liberated' Jerusalem, for instance, at the cost of 70 000 civilians massacred. Very holy, that.

'Evil' doesn't require a disbelief in a deity to occur.

	28-01-2005 16:26									#116
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quote: There is a need for people in every society who believe in God and obey his will, or the society will degenerate and commit great evil

I stated that it was necessary for people to believe in God AND obey his will, all the national leaders you mentioned abandoned their faith in God, and it cannot be claimed the the leaders of the inquisition were following God's will or the crusaders as God has never sanctioned vilence as a means for spreading his gospel and crushing opposition. If you wish to oppose my statement, use genuine examples only please.

	28-01-2005 16:48									#117
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quote: Originally posted by trev I stated that it was necessary for people to believe in God AND obey his will, all the national leaders you mentioned abandoned their faith in God, and it cannot be claimed the the leaders of the inquisition were following God's will or the crusaders as God has never sanctioned vilence as a means for spreading his gospel and crushing opposition. If you wish to oppose my statement, use genuine examples only please.

God has never sanctioned violence? Are you quite sure?


In any case, god and religion are two separate things: since god didn't bothered to show up to contradict St Bernard or Pope Gregory IX or Pope Paul III or the Dominicans or the Crusaders and they all claimed to be following god's will, how exactly is anyone meant to know the difference?


And if you believe in the biblical flood, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, the story of Exodus, the various afflictions supposedly delivered to the enemies of the Hebrews and so forth, then your god is quite familiar with the wreaking of large scale death and destruction to prove a point.

	28-01-2005 16:58									#118
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Trev, the inquisition, the religious wars, the English civil war, terrorism... the list goes on ad nausium

Does anyone else find it quite scary about the very poor level of education re. evolution that seems to display itself among certain unnamed creationists? That is to say, where it's being taught there may be deficient teaching methods.

	28-01-2005 20:23									#119
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quote: Originally posted by DRoseDARs Aren't there still some archeobacteria (sp?) around deepsea vents that don't require oxygen? We know that there used to be because the atmosphere didn't always have oxygen, it had to be expelled as a waste product eons ago.

Most biologists call them Archaea nowdays, and yes, most of them do not use oxygen. The early atmosphere was mostly carbon dioxide and nitrogen, about 3.5 billion years ago the Cyanobacteria invented a form of photosynthesis that used water instead of hydrogen sulfide as a source of hydrogen, releasing oxygen instead of sulfur as a waste product. the oxygen reacted with the huge amounts of iron ions in the seawater to form the great iron ore deposits, like the Mesabi formation in NE Minnesota, that we use today. When all the iron was gone, oxygen began to accumulate in the atmosphere.

	28-01-2005 20:50									#120
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Molly bloom is incredible.... In a good way.