29-01-2005 21:46									#1
	The Forests are GONE!?!? Depleting Resources Suffering from ads?

What are some ideas for depleting resources? For the ancient period.

Timber, marine life, and copper and tin are obvious.

Any more?

	29-01-2005 21:55									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Marble, purple fabric, exotic spices ...

	29-01-2005 23:38									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Marble is good. I like that.

Not sure that spices or dyes are depletable in the sense that I'm thinking.

More ideas people.

	29-01-2005 23:55									#4
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Exotic wild life (birds, lions, furs) used in luxury goods.

Salt

Slaves (a bit of a touchy subject, but it is the bronze age)

	29-01-2005 23:56									#5
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Mrrrr, Frankensense, Gold...

	29-01-2005 23:59									#6
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Thanks to something that I saw John Ellis do, Here is the general idea:

How do you represent depletable resources in Civ2?

In the old Microprose (bless 'em!) game Colonization, once trees were cut down, they provided resources, but the land was changed in doing so, and it was never the same again. Good idea. But cutting down forests in Civ2 doesn't work that way.

John created an improvement in StC that simulated this effect. He called it "family gold reserves" or something similar. If you're creating an ancient scenario, chances are good that you're not going to need "air" improvements. No airport. No SAM. No SDI.

However . . . . . .

You can place these improvement in cities, call them something else (like local timber, for example), give it a new graphic, set its support cost to 0 and give it a high "cost." The improvement/local timber can be "sold" at any time, generating gold. But once used, that's it. It's gone, and there may come a time later in the scenario when the use of those resources may be more recommended.

And then it occurred to me that ANY improvement that normally wouldn't see use in an ancient/medieval scenario would also function this way. So now I can add all the various "plants," and the anti-pollution improvements too. Just so long as there is no factory.

This many extra improvements allows me to create a customized, long-term resource pool for various individual cities, thereby making SOME cities MUCH more desirable than normal ones.

Now, back to ideas. . . . . .

	30-01-2005 00:09									#7
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Or, you can have units that can be killed that generate gold, parked outside of cities. If you want resources, set the owner to the player and have them have a high shield cost for disbanding.

	30-01-2005 01:35									#8
	Tired of ads?

Mike Daumen came up with a good idea for his Russian Civil War project. Place barbarian food caravans around the map with 0 movement. If they are bribed by the human player, Leo's Workshop converts them to freight units which do have a movement allowance, and hence can be used to feed starving cities. He was trying to demonstrate that persuasion worked better than force in requistioning food supplies.

This could be used for all manner of trade goods, or generic units useful for shields only. Of course, the down side is that only one civ can have Leo's Workshop.

You could immobilize a 2 mf barbarian unit if it was placed on a fortress. Once you bribe it, you can move it.

	30-01-2005 02:58									#9
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

More obtuse ways of creating depletable resources;

Unit, "forest," is outside of city somewhere appropriate. It's a friendly unit--your people know their way around the woods, but it's a block for anyone else because it's an air unit. It has no movement. Your settler units ONLY have the "attack air" capability. If they "cut down" the forest, a unit appears in the capital called "lumber." Has no movement, and can only serve the function of disbanding to assist the manufacture of other things.

lol.

	30-01-2005 03:34									#10
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Exile More obtuse ways of creating depletable resources; Unit, "forest," is outside of city somewhere appropriate. It's a friendly unit--your people know their way around the woods, but it's a block for anyone else because it's an air unit. It has no movement. Your settler units ONLY have the "attack air" capability. If they "cut down" the forest, a unit appears in the capital called "lumber." Has no movement, and can only serve the function of disbanding to assist the manufacture of other things. lol.

I think this is your best idea Exile. The improvement idea seems to have a very high cost to benefit received ratio, making it something that a player may not bother with.

The Leo Workshop idea is a decent one, but I think it would render to many possible units moot for a player. Of course in a multiplayer game where each player has special abilities this would be a neat thing for Co-op play.

	30-01-2005 03:41									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

lol, I apparently failed to fully explain the improvement idea.

The improvements (local resources; timber, marine, minerals, etc.) are THERE at start. No one can build them, and they cost nothing to maintain. They simply are resources available to use at any time, via selling them off. They don't do anything and they don't cost anything to keep. Their only purpose is to be sold off. The question, for players, is when?

	30-01-2005 04:22									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Maybe I'm just not getting it, but if the forests in your last example are friendly units, how are the player's settlers going to harvest them? And why not just start with helpless, immobile "timber" units in the city if you're going to work the game that way? Especially if the enemy got a certain small amount of gold for every such unit killed. That way, "looting" the city's material riches reduces its population (the natural effect of an enthusiastic horde of ransacking soldiers), but earns
a comparatively minor amount of gold for the enemy.

It makes more sense to have profit from the resource, whatever it is, be in shields. With city improvements it makes sense to just sell 'em all ASAP; it's not like Gold can go stale or anything like that. There'd be no strategy element if the resources gave gold, unless the player were close to hitting the 30K gold barrier every turn.

Maybe caravans? A limited, non-buildable supply of caravans that can be used to rush wonders one time each? I'm not familiar with the limitations of caravan mechanics specifically...

	30-01-2005 05:01									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

No, you got it Elok. I missed it. The forests would have to be hostile air units with 0 defense so no moving through. That changed, it would work.

I probably won't use it however. It uses too much event space. lol.

About gold going stale; if the tech tree is moving along, and much more powerful units will be available to build sometime in the future, do you build a lot of crap units and attempt to overwhelm your foes, or wait and use the resources to build powerful units when the time is right? The additional variable is the behavior of opponents--what are they doing?

And gold stored in the form of "resources" doesn't appear when enemy armies demand tribute. They only look at the cash you have on hand. Excessive wealth will also attract the attention of aggressive MGE AIs looking for war. The less money you have . . . .

	30-01-2005 05:28									#14
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Yes, but gold stored in the form of "resources" can only be liquidated at a rate of one per city per turn, and once liquidated can be used in ANY city, not just the one it was sold from. You mine marble in Corinth, and hundreds of miles away in Cordoba it's used to make a marketplace instantly? It would also make the cities with those resources basically unbribeable, wouldn't it?

True, a unit would too, but only if it were a static unit sitting around in the city. A mobile, expensive, useless unit without support would be a much better "resource" IMO. It would allow more than one of a particular resource per city as well, introduce the problem of transport, etc., giving it all the delicacy of a real, transported trade good, which could be plundered en route by pirates for cash. If you want a geographically limited resource, make it an air unit with limited movement or some such. Units are just much more flexible for this kind of idea.

	30-01-2005 05:32									#15
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Exile lol, I apparently failed to fully explain the improvement idea. The improvements (local resources; timber, marine, minerals, etc.) are THERE at start. No one can build them, and they cost nothing to maintain. They simply are resources available to use at any time, via selling them off. They don't do anything and they don't cost anything to keep. Their only purpose is to be sold off. The question, for players, is when?

Ahhhh, I get it now. It's a good idea then, but I'd back it up with some actual harvesting. I mean you could just call it The King's Stash and tell the player that it's there. I find that the stress of having to make money by attacking units is a good way to make players venture out and get into conflicts. No camping that way and it makes the player attack not when he wants, but when he has to.

So what's this scenario about?

	30-01-2005 06:19									#16
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Good brainstorming here, guys!

	30-01-2005 15:20									#17
	Got spare money?

To answer Harry;

My next project, well under way now, is the AGE of BRONZE. Starts 1800 BC and runs to 300 BC, with 5 year turn increments. Only about 300 or so turns, so not so bad. Tech paradigm much closer to the default rate so tech will advance somewhat quickly. The civs are; Egypt, Assyria, Babylonia, Hurrians, Hittites, Greeks, and Persians.

The game will be "tilted" to favor the Greeks, however, through their government and a few events. The others will present both challenges and military adventure.

The Barbarians will be active. My experience with them in AoC has given me some insight into how they function, and thus, how to use them effectively and, more important, somewhat predictably as well. The Hyksos WILL invade Egypt. The Sea Peoples WILL attack the coasts of the eatern Mediterranean. The Arameans WILL cause turmoil in the fertile crescent.

I've also managed to find a good historical account of the Hittite empire and will therefore create a much fuller simulation of it than any scenario I've spotted before now. In fact, I almost created a scen based exclusively on the Hittite empire's rise and fall, but it seemed naturally to fit within the context of the broader, bronze age scenario.

Of course, Fairline graphics will be utilized throughout, though I may have to call on Gareth to provide a few tidbits here and there.

Paul Cullivan, if you're still out there, anything you could tell me about possible pitfalls and problems would surely be appreciated. I've been playing Ancient Empires and Seeds of Greatness now for the last few months off and on, and now know those scens pretty well.

	30-01-2005 17:47									#18
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Sounds really COOL Exile.

I like the Civs you picked all good choices.

It should be interesting to see how you develop the Persian Empire to me especially.
The Hyksos invasion will be barbarian, kind of curios to see how you pull that off and what you have in mind.

What is the name of the book you are using to reference the Hittites?

Good luck Exile - this one should be really interesting

	30-01-2005 20:46									#19
	Increase Your PM Length

Encyclopedia Britannica Macropedia

Great article on the Hittites.

Hits all the high points quick.

	01-02-2005 07:03									#20
	Remove this text

Two things I can think of about proposed ideas

1) Maybe I'm missing something but I just don't see why players would wait to sell off 'improvement' type resources?
Unless you gain something from their presence there's absolutely no incentive to keep them. Cash you can always find a use for. Getting new improvements/units sooner, etc ... Even if your cities are under attack (hence you may lose more gold if you have more in your treasury) you're still better off than you would be if an enemy captured a city and you lost half of your 'resources' anyway ...

2) If you do have hostile resource 'units' you'll have to keep them a little away from your cities as you won't be able to use the tiles otherwise.
I presume 'settler' type units do actually attack if they have an attack rating? I've seen engineers do it but I'm not sure about settlers.
Perhaps more to the point if resource-gathering is a major part of the game - will the AI actually send settler-types out on seek-and-destroy missions (as players almost certainly will) or just go after those resources in very close proximity?

'Resource' defence values will need to be pretty low too unless you want a campaign fought entirely by hi-attack value marauding woodcutters scything their way through legions of foes.

	01-02-2005 08:44									#21
	Inflate your Upload Space

Has anyone ever put a number in the improvement upkeep field that was too large? I wonder if it could be set so that it actually gives money to the player. If so, that could give another incentive to keeping the improvement around. Otherwise most players will follow Ravagnon's advice, unless...

quote: And gold stored in the form of resources" doesn't appear when enemy armies demand tribute.

Tweaking the scen so that enemy tribute demands are both very likely and very bad news is the key to the resource improvement idea.

I'm pretty sure that enemy air resource units won't prevent you from using those tiles for cities.

	01-02-2005 10:25									#22
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

The consequences of destroying non-renewable resources are more than economic, it's just that they can be ignored because they are not felt instantaneously. Deforestation causes soil erosion and flash flooding. Mining contaminates water supplies.

The trade-off should be more than just whether the proceeds from the destruction are worth more to the player now or later. The player should have to balance present gain against future problems that may be costly to address.

	01-02-2005 13:51									#23
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Boco I'm pretty sure that enemy air resource units won't prevent you from using those tiles for cities.

Mmmm? I'm pretty sure I've seen my resources reallocated in my city screen whenever enemy bombers are around ...
I've certainly never gone in and checked carefully though so it may have just been a display issue.


Following on from Valmonts comments on flash-flooding - how about a 'walled-off' section of the map with a single city (with a very large pop growth rate). Whenever some condition is met, say after every 5 deforestation events (this is for ToT right? ), and the city is hit by a range 1 nuke unit that appears right next to it?
You'll get the 10 heat points (iirc?) for the detonation. Enough of these and you'll eventually trigger a global warming event which could of course be re-worded into something more appropriate.

	01-02-2005 19:23									#24
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Some replies;

1. No, not for ToT.

2. Agree about long-term consequences for destruction of resources. How do you represent that?

3. I can't do anything about a Civ2 player's urge to sell off everything right away . . . . but I do have a few ideas.

This next scenario will be only 300 turns, 5 years/turn, and the tech paradigm will be 1:1(so far, and subject to change). Things will move very quickly compared to other scenarios I've put together. There will not be a lot of high defense units. This scenario will start with most of the map occupied by barb cities. Your job, whether as Egypt, Greeks, Babylon, Assyria, or the Hittites, will be to conquer, conquer, conquer. Once that's done, and the barb cities aren't so numerous, the question then becomes one of coalitions, diplomacy, and judicious back-stabbing. I'm hoping that, in an evironment like this, where better units are just over the horizon, and conquering armies wander about looking for prey, the decision on whether or not to deplete resources NOW or wait for better units/improvements to come along is pertinent.

	01-02-2005 19:58									#25
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Very interesting concept, Exile!

I am sure you'll find the right way to make it a dreadful choice! (to sell or not to sell, that is the question...)

And the era you've chosen make my finger itch to play it!

Sounds like another "chef d'oeuvre" in the making!

	11-02-2005 08:32									#26
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Boco I'm pretty sure that enemy air resource units won't prevent you from using those tiles for cities.

quote: Originally posted by ravagon Mmmm? I'm pretty sure I've seen my resources reallocated in my city screen whenever enemy bombers are around ... I've certainly never gone in and checked carefully though so it may have just been a display issue.

I just realized that the enemy air units that didn't block friendly use of the city square they occupied had a 0 af. When the af > 0, the squares were not available for use by citizens.

	12-02-2005 00:52									#27
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Not surprising, Boco.

Oh, for the days of civ1 when I could take an air force and "pillage" land improvements. Centuries of work could disappear in 2 or 3 turns. Enemy industrial complexes shorn of their resources and reduced to penury. *wist*

	12-02-2005 12:37									#28
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: I'm hoping that, in an evironment like this, where better units are just over the horizon, and conquering armies wander about looking for prey, the decision on whether or not to deplete resources NOW or wait for better units/improvements to come along is pertinent.

In Civ, it's almost always good to exploit a resource as soon as you can due to exponential growth. Implementing side effects or having the resource get better with age might be an alternative.