30-01-2005 12:45									#1
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http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...any_farright_dc

quote: World - Reuters Reuters Top German Judge Says Far-Right Party Ban Possible Sat Jan 29, 1:05 PM ET By Dave Graham BERLIN (Reuters) - A controversial far-right party in Germany could be banned despite the failure of an earlier attempt to outlaw it, the head of Germany's highest court was quoted as saying by a newspaper on Saturday. The remarks of Hans-Juergen Papier, president of the constitutional court, coincided with violent clashes between police and demonstrators protesting at a rally by the National Democratic Party (NPD) in the northern city of Kiel. Papier said that although the court threw out a government bid to ban the NPD in 2003, future attempts could still succeed. "The suspension of proceedings to ban (the party) then, does not represent a pre-ordained decision on future efforts to ban (it)," Papier wrote in a guest contribution for Germany's Bild am Sonntag newspaper, due to appear on Sunday. "These facts need to be remembered," he added. In Kiel, demonstrators threw bottles and stones at police protecting some 450 supporters of the NPD as they attended a public address by the party. Discontent over the NPD event drew around 7,000 protesters, according to police estimates. "There (were) massive and hard clashes," a police spokesman said, adding that tires and rubbish containers had been set on fire and that police had sprayed protesters with a water cannon. Police said over 40 largely left-wing demonstrators were detained. Many street signs and shop windows were vandalized. The center-left government has likened the NPD to the embryonic Nazi party and tried to have it outlawed on the grounds that it stirred racial hatred. Despite Papier's comments, Bavaria's Interior Minister Guenther Beckstein, who in 2000 kickstarted the push for the NPD ban, advised against a fresh initiative for the moment. "I want to remind people that the NPD ban proceedings failed due to a minority (vote) among the judges -- the majority wanted to continue proceedings," he told Reuters by telephone. The opposition conservative lawmaker said a ban would require a three-quarters majority in the constitutional court. Prior to its ruling, the court had suspended proceedings after it emerged the government's case against the NPD included testimony and speeches from paid informants. The NPD, which seeks to promote policies that favor ethnic Germans and is strongly anti-Jewish, produced the far-right's best showing in six years in September when it won nearly 10 percent of the vote in state elections in Saxony. It provoked outrage last week by walking out of a minute's silence for Nazi victims and referring to Allied strikes on the German city of Dresden in 1945 as a "bombing holocaust."

when has banning political parties ever been a good thing?

	30-01-2005 14:26									#2
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I'm not sure I like this party's politics but it seems to me that having left leaning political parties seeking to ban right leaning parties is little better then vis versa.

	30-01-2005 15:14									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I'm not sure I like this party's politics but it seems to me that having left leaning political parties seeking to ban right leaning parties is little better then vis versa.

"Right leaning" may not be the correct expression for the NPD. Partial playing down or actively denying holocaust, "vicitmization" of WWII-Germany, aggressive anti-semitism are among the positions of the party. As in the article stated, conservative party was also pushing to outlaw the party as unconstitutional. They only think now that such a move is not productive at the moment, but generally they don't have a problem with such a ban. So you can't subsum this as "left leaning" parties censoring/banning "right leaning" parties.
Spreading of Nazi propaganda is unconstitutional in Germany with a reason. OK, if a fascist ideology becomes so strong that the system isn't able to cope with them, the state will go down. But unless such a situation comes, democracy has a right to protect itself against hostile movements that actively undermine it and don't accept the core of democracy itself. So banning a party may have a positive effect because you deny them a more public stage and the fig leave of social normality.

	30-01-2005 16:34									#4
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or it could be used as cause to just alienate bunch of people into supporting them.

	30-01-2005 16:37									#5
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Lol NPD "right leaning" - they are neonazis.

	30-01-2005 16:52									#6
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Wernazuma, right, I think with NPD, I don't know too much about it but I tihnk it's closer to neo-nazis than a real party. So, democratically thinking they should have the right to .. try to get in there, but then again if they would gain power, they would halt democratic processes and not respect the democratic ideals. So maybe those attempts can be seen as enemy of democracy. It's kind of double edged sword though.. I don't know what the solution to this would be, I mean banning it is also kind of .. undemocratic. Difficult question.

But yes, they are not 'conservatives' or regular right wing.

	30-01-2005 17:37									#7
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There is a reason why there are now again attempts to ban the NPD:

It is usual at the anniversary of the Bombings of Dresden for the State Parliament of Saxonia, to hold a silence minute for all the victims of the Nazi Regime.
All the members of the parliament took part in this, with one exception. All of the members of the NPD (who since the last elections have a small number of delegates in the parliament) left the conference hall.
Even before this, they had petitioned, to only mourn the german victims at the anniversary and to held a discussion about the *quote*Terrorattack on Dresden 60 years ago*/quote*

In a discussion within the parliament afterwards the leaders of the NPD-Fraction within the parliament again called, partially shouting, the allied forces mass murderers and spoke of an anglo-american gangster policy.

Here in germany this could count as demagogy and leaves strong remembrances on a certain party which was in power in Germany 60 years ago,
so it is justified, that again it is checked wether ist is a reason to ban the NPD.

As BeBro already mentioned, the NPD isnīt just right leaning, but a party which has close ties to Neonazis, is supported by them and very certainly supports them and their propaganda (although very rarely openly, but most of the times hidden)

	30-01-2005 18:09									#8
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In any event even if the party is full of scum bags you need to arrest them if they break the law but not ban the entire party simply because you don't like their politics. In the US it is legal to be part of extremist parties like the American Nazi Party or the American Communist Party but those members are watch closely and if they break the law then rhe authorities go after the individuaal based upon the law s/he broke.

Banning whole parties who have not broken the law smells of facism and should be avoided even if the other guys are dumb asses. It is much better to simply keep them legal and then ridicule them so that everyone sees how stupid they really are. Then they can't complain that they're being repressed since they had their chance but were launghed off the stage.

	30-01-2005 18:20									#9
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The NPD sounds a lot like the British National Party which is anti-immigrant and believes in the racial superiority of Anglo-Saxon people. It is a legal party in the UK though the media exposes them for the frauds they are and everyone gets to have a good laugh at their expense.

	30-01-2005 18:29									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The NPD sounds a lot like the British National Party which is anti-immigrant and believes in the racial superiority of Anglo-Saxon people. It is a legal party in the UK though the media exposes them for the frauds they are and everyone gets to have a good laugh at their expense.

Yes and no. They are very similar, and most of the time they are just stupid. However, the first attempt to ban them was made not because the majority doesn't like their POVs - there are similar parties here which haven't been threatened with a ban. In the case of the NPD the ban was planned because party members (up to the leading ranks in the NPD) were linked to violence, including some very disturbing cases. Some spent already their time in jail for that.

	30-01-2005 18:33									#11
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Then it seems the German government took the correct path. If people are advocating violence then they should be arrested and charged and if a party is advicating violence then it too should be held accountable.

	30-01-2005 18:42									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin In any event even if the party is full of scum bags you need to arrest them if they break the law but not ban the entire party simply because you don't like their politics. In the US it is legal to be part of extremist parties like the American Nazi Party or the American Communist Party but those members are watch closely and if they break the law then rhe authorities go after the individuaal based upon the law s/he broke. Banning whole parties who have not broken the law smells of facism and should be avoided even if the other guys are dumb asses. It is much better to simply keep them legal and then ridicule them so that everyone sees how stupid they really are. Then they can't complain that they're being repressed since they had their chance but were launghed off the stage.

But, as I said, they probably have broken the law.
Exactly this is it what is checked.

We have laws against damagogism, i.e. for example publicly stating that Holocaust is a lie invented by the allies, Jews are subhumans that should be exterminated and many other things.

In America you would probably allowed to say such things, by Free speech, but in Germany stating such things could get you a fine or even imprisonment.

So now it is checked, if, by the actions I stated above, the NPD has broken the § 130 StGB, which covers just this.
Especially this passsage from § 130:

quote: (3) with imprisonment up to five years or with fine one is punished, who publicly or in a meeting approves of, denies or plays down. an action committed under the rule of the national socialism in kind of way, which is suitable, of disturbing the public peace

http://lawww.de/Library/stgb/130.htm

As the NPD is a politic party, the punishment could also result in a ban for the whole party, if it is made clear, that those acts arenīt sole acts from a few members, but that the party has supported these acts.

	30-01-2005 18:49									#13
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That is in fact the major problem - determining when it is only about single members, or when it is the party in general that is advocating or using violence. Insofar I can understand the concerns regarding such a ban (and it is a controversial topic here too). But I sometimes get the impression people outside Germany think parties are banned easily here all the time, which is not the case. The gouvernment cannot ban a party alone, it must prove in the constitutional court that the ban it seeks is justified (and the party in question can defend itself then).

	30-01-2005 19:33									#14
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Boo.

East Germans trying to kick out ineffective socialist rule
Corrupt ruling party elites in the west banning every serious opposition movement they'll face

	30-01-2005 20:13									#15
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quote: But unless such a situation comes, democracy has a right to protect itself against hostile movements that actively undermine it and don't accept the core of democracy itself.

And thus democracy is already lost. That is a slippery slope. And btw it is totally within the tenets of democracy to have it voluntarily disolved.

And not that I have any problem mourning Holocaust victims, but why would you do that at a Dresden bombing memorial? We do the same thing with black civil war soldiers, every sight has to celebrate them whether there were any there or not.

	30-01-2005 20:19									#16
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quote: Originally posted by VJ Boo. East Germans trying to kick out ineffective socialist rule Corrupt ruling party elites in the west banning every serious opposition movement they'll face

The NPD is far away from being an economically right wing party. They are just ultra-authoritarian (fascist).

	30-01-2005 20:28									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos And thus democracy is already lost. That is a slippery slope. And btw it is totally within the tenets of democracy to have it voluntarily disolved.

I think I posted it before in another thread, but I disagree. I see no differences between a party that uses violence as strategy to reach its goals and a terrorist organization (which actually does the same). Now if the NPD follows such a strategy yet (or if there are only certain members that use violent means) is still up to debate.

	30-01-2005 22:14									#18
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quote: And thus democracy is already lost. That is a slippery slope. And btw it is totally within the tenets of democracy to have it voluntarily disolved.

I completely disagree. With that reasoning the Nazi tyranny was perfectly legitimate as it got to power democratically and then disolved democracy. So it's legitimate when people vote to abandon democracy in, say, 2005, and in 2200 people still live under the same regime. "Hey don't blame us, your grandgrandgrandfather didn't want democracy". With similar reasoning, a majority vote would make almost anything legitimate, like 51% deciding to rot out 49% (or 67% to rot out 33% if you wish). There's more to democracy. It's not possible without equal rights and īperiodical free and secret multi-party elections.
A democracy disolving itself is not the last act of democracy but the first act of tyranny. Why would we encourage democracy in the world anyway, then?

	30-01-2005 22:44									#19
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quote: So it's legitimate when people vote to abandon democracy in, say, 2005, and in 2200 people still live under the same regime. "Hey don't blame us, your grandgrandgrandfather didn't want democracy"

And I have been stuck with this whole democracy thing for my whole life because someones grandgrandgrandfather wasn't a fan of monarchy. Democracy is exactly what it says. All this proportional representation/multiparty stuff is your attempt to fix a flawed system in your eyes.

And I am sure if you study the Nazi rise to power you will find it was anything but democratic. Unless democratic to you means killing and beating up your competitors

	30-01-2005 22:48									#20
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Yes, there was open terror on the streets in the early 30ies. But exactly this was the way democracy was undermined, so at least for our country the consequence was to be extremely vigilant that similar things do not happen again....)

	30-01-2005 23:05									#21
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Germany should first come under nazi rule and THEN do something against it and not before, because this is undemocratic....
Is this what some people try to argue?

	30-01-2005 23:33									#22
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There are things that can be done, without infringing on democratic rights. The first one, being to deal with the problems that are causing this party to become popular. No party becomes popular without appealing to some weakness in the governing party, that if the governing party were to address the problem, it would remove much of the popular support behind this new party.

Often, as we are seeing here in Canada, when the party's ideology differs from the majority of the people, the governing party has a choice. They can pragmatically hold onto power by acknowledging the people, or they can cling to their ideology, and lose power.

quote: I'm not sure I like this party's politics but it seems to me that having left leaning political parties seeking to ban right leaning parties is little better then vis versa.

So when the Communists establish a single party state, this is somehow better than Fascists doing the same?

There is no difference, whether it is done by the right or the left.

	31-01-2005 00:05									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi There are things that can be done, without infringing on democratic rights. The first one, being to deal with the problems that are causing this party to become popular. No party becomes popular without appealing to some weakness in the governing party, that if the governing party were to address the problem, it would remove much of the popular support behind this new party.

The party got 9 % of the votes,
which was enough to get to the parliament of Saxonia,
but not enough to have real power.

I think the reason why they got these 9% was not because these people who elected them all supported the neonazis, but rather Protest.
East Germany has to fight with some problems since Reunification,
especially a high rate of unemployment.

As the established parties werenīt able to date to really do something against it, extreme right wing parties like the NPD saw their chance by making promises during the election campaign that they would solve all the problems the established parties couldnīt solve (but of course without saying how they would do it )

Btw. AFAIK a similar situation like the Situation which brought the NSDAP into power. At this time germany also had to fight with massive problems (especially a high inflation) and the NSDAP promised to solve them (that they also propagated antisemitism and built up paramilitary organizations was IMHO overlooked by most people and they didnīt think much about it, as they made their choice for the NSDAP [until it was too late and Hitler was able to get supreme power as response to a terrorist attack onto the german Reichstag])

	31-01-2005 00:10									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi There are things that can be done, without infringing on democratic rights. The first one, being to deal with the problems that are causing this party to become popular. No party becomes popular without appealing to some weakness in the governing party, that if the governing party were to address the problem, it would remove much of the popular support behind this new party. Often, as we are seeing here in Canada, when the party's ideology differs from the majority of the people, the governing party has a choice. They can pragmatically hold onto power by acknowledging the people, or they can cling to their ideology, and lose power.

Somehow, this doesn't fit the German situation. It's not like the German government was unaware of the problems or ignoring them on ideological grounds. East Germany suffers from great economic and prosperity problems. In a nutshell, they have the problem to be stuck between west and east. While the western economies grow on slow pace but on high level and the eastern post-communist economies are very dynamic, East Germany has neither because of high wages and social security. It's not possible for the German govt. to make really seperate economic policies in a unified Germany. I don't say there are no ways, but certainly it's not simply ignorance from governmental side.
Another part of the problem is that in communist Germany open discussion about the past didn't happen as it did in the western parts, thus "under the blanket" many old Nazi beliefs survived much better.
The NPD is certainly not a small threat to democracy because it's certainly tied to violence and intimidation, as has been shown in the past and as can tell people in regions where the NPD is really strong.

	31-01-2005 02:26									#25
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quote: I think the reason why they got these 9% was not because these people who elected them all supported the neonazis, but rather Protest. East Germany has to fight with some problems since Reunification, especially a high rate of unemployment.

So there you go. An area for the current government to work on.

I know unemployment can be difficult, and takes time to change. The employment here after our recession in the early nineties, was the very last thing to recover. The same is true the other way around. The unemployment rate will climb after other economic indicators have dropped.

quote: It's not possible for the German govt. to make really seperate economic policies in a unified Germany.

That's an ideology. It is possible, but when you believe that having all of Germany treated equally, you are not going to have this possible.

Over here, we have wealth redistribution from the wealthy provinces to the poorer ones, in an effort to renew the economic prosperity in the weaker regions. So far it has succeeded in some things, but the problem remains that the provinces have became dependent upon the money given to them from the other provinces.

This also raises resentment in the wealthier provinces, in that they feel they are being burdened by the weaker ones.

I think a more effective method to encourage investment in East Germany, is to offer credits to companies willing to relocate there. That would give some basis for rebuilding the East, as the West was rebuilt in the 40's and 50's.

If it can be done in the West, I don't see why it can't also be done in the East.

	31-01-2005 02:32									#26
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quote: Another part of the problem is that in communist Germany open discussion about the past didn't happen as it did in the western parts, thus "under the blanket" many old Nazi beliefs survived much better.

You make an interesting point about West and East. Somehow, the conditions in the other former Soviet bloc countries needs to be simulated in East Germany. They need to be able to cut costs in order to be competitive.

As for rejecting Communist ideals, this does not surprise me. When you have suffered under communism, it makes sense that you would favour the values of their staunchest enemies, particularly when you prospered under them.

I wonder what effect the polish refugees have had on the East, speaking of all the German residents in former East Prussia that had to flee their land and home, after the second world war. Did most of them settle in the East, or elsewhere?

	31-01-2005 03:23									#27
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Most refugees settled in the West.

	31-01-2005 09:54									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos And thus democracy is already lost. That is a slippery slope. And btw it is totally within the tenets of democracy to have it voluntarily disolved.

And if AQ tried to constitute itself as a political party in the United States? What would happen then?

	31-01-2005 10:07									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa Germany should first come under nazi rule and THEN do something against it and not before, because this is undemocratic.... Is this what some people try to argue?

No, I believe the argument which has been put forward is to punish people who commit crimes but do not ban political parties because you don't like their politics. Bebro and others have come up with some interesting counter arguments which actually seem valid to me if used in small doses.

	31-01-2005 10:09									#30
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It seems like Germany is heading down the way of Hugo Chavez.