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The Emperor Fabulous is offline The Emperor Fabulous
Warlord
Apolyton's Resident Actor-in-Training
Aug 1999
time: 00:27
  Old Post 02-02-2005 08:15
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Rumsfeld and Nuclear Weapons Tired of ads?

quote:
Rumsfeld Seeks to Revive Burrowing Nuclear Bomb
Bush Budget May Fund Program That Congress Cut


By Walter Pincus
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, February 1, 2005; Page A02

Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld sent a memo last month to then-Energy Secretary Spencer Abraham saying next year's budget should include funds to resume study of building an earth-penetrating nuclear weapon designed to destroy hardened underground targets.

An Energy Department official said yesterday that $10.3 million to restart that study is expected to be included in the Bush administration's budget, which is to be released next week.


The study, which had been undertaken at the Los Alamos, Sandia and Livermore national laboratories, was halted late last year after Congress deleted $27.5 million for it from the fiscal 2005 Omnibus Appropriations Bill.

The research project was started in 2002 as a three-year effort to see if an existing nuclear warhead could be fitted with a hardened casing allowing it to dig deep into the earth before exploding. The program has been restricted each year by Senate and House members who have argued that even studying the potential for such a new nuclear weapon undermines Washington's attempts to limit other countries from developing their own nuclear arsenals.

Last year, at the insistence of Rep. David L. Hobson (R-Ohio), chairman of the House Appropriations subcommittee on energy and water, Congress cut all money for the program. That came as a reaction to a five-year budget projection by the National Nuclear Security Administration, which runs the nuclear program within the Energy Department, that estimated spending almost $500 million to produce the weapon in the budgets for fiscal 2005 to 2009.

Up to that point, the Bush administration had emphasized that the "bunker buster" program was only a research study, and Congress would have to vote on going ahead with production before that step was to be taken.

Rumsfeld weighed in on the issue in a Jan. 10 memo to Abraham, which was made available to The Washington Post.

"I think we should request funds in FY06 and FY07 to complete the study," Rumsfeld wrote. "Our staffs have spoken about funding the Robust Nuclear Earth Penetrator (RNEP) study to support its completion by April 2007." He added, "You can count on my support for your efforts to revitalize the nuclear weapons infrastructure and to complete the RNEP study."

A Pentagon spokesman yesterday confirmed the contents of the Rumsfeld memo and said the Defense Department "supports completion of the study."

A spokesman for Hobson said, "Until we see the budget request, it is premature to comment on what might or might not be in it." Hobson is expected to address the subject when he speaks Thursday before the Arms Control Association, which has led the nongovernmental opposition to the RNEP study.

"The administration is missing a key opportunity to make good on the congressional decision last year if it were to renew funding of the study," the association' executive director, Daryl Kimball, said yesterday. "It sends the wrong signal to the international community on the U.S. approach on nonproliferation, and Congress may again reject the request."

The Bush administration's 2002 Nuclear Posture Review found that no weapon in the current stockpile could threaten the growing number of targets being buried in tunnels and beneath mountains.

Congress that year required the nuclear security agency to study whether there was a requirement for such a weapon, and in response the Air Force specified requirements for such a weapon. The Nuclear Weapons Council, made up of representatives of the Defense and Energy departments, then proposed a three-year $45 million feasibility study. Two existing warheads, one used in the B-61 tactical bomb and one used in the B-63 strategic bomb, were to be part of the study, which also was to identify a casing that could burrow deep enough into the ground before exploding.

Opponents of the proposed new weapon have argued that sealing off underground facilities could be done as well with smart, precision-guided conventional weapons, a position supported in 2003 by Adm. James O. Ellis Jr., then head of the U.S. Strategic Command. They also have said that no casing could dig deep enough to prevent the nuclear warhead's explosion from sending tons of radioactive debris into the atmosphere.

At the Jan. 19 confirmation hearing for Samuel W. Bodman, the new energy secretary, Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.), a leader of the opposition to the study, said, "Dr. Sidney Drell at Stanford University has said there is no casing known to man that can sustain driving a missile a thousand feet underground; therefore, you would have a spewing of radiation."

She asked Bodman if she could discuss the bunker buster privately with him before he signed off on the program because "there are many of us that believe very passionately that we should not, should not, reopen the nuclear door."

At that time Bodman, a former deputy Treasury secretary, said he had not had time to study the issue.


There are two very scary parts of this whole thing.

1.) The Administration will attempt to fund it after Congress eliminated the funding
2.) The Administration's report sees nuclear bunker busters as the ONLY VIABLE SOLUTION to underground and mountain facilities

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:27
  Old Post 02-02-2005 08:18
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How does this differ from the B61-11?

GePap is offline GePap
King
of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:27
  Old Post 02-02-2005 08:22
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Who cares if it differs or not? The point is, should we be trying to invent new nukes types seemingly made only to be used, when we are the ones babbling about the evil nuclear threat? This kind of bald faced hypocrasy (OMG, nukes EVIL! Lets develop ones we would use without hesitation) is just the sort of stupidity that will one day just break down the NPT system completely and fully.

Who gives a **** if something is deep in a bunker? Lets it stay there and think of ways of cutting off the exits, to as it were, burry the threat.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:27
Question  Old Post 02-02-2005 08:24
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
Who cares if it differs or not?
I believe DinoDoc seems to be curious about the differences between the two. Otherwise why would he have asked the question?

Ted Striker is offline Ted Striker
Emperor
United States of America
Jan 1970
time: 21:27
  Old Post 02-02-2005 08:26 Visit Ted Striker's homepage!
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Regarding your question, my gives a **** is broken

Ted Striker is offline Ted Striker
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United States of America
Jan 1970
time: 21:27
  Old Post 02-02-2005 08:27 Visit Ted Striker's homepage!
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It is hypocricy to demand an end to nuclear proliferation while developing nukes.

And also agreed scary that they would push this even after Congress said no.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
King
of Internet Music.
Sep 2001
time: 21:27
  Old Post 02-02-2005 08:52
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I'm actually for this program. The best way to prevent people from bothering to build deep hardened structures is to make sure everyone knows we can bust them any time we feel like it.

Admiral is offline Admiral
Warlord
of the peace and coexistance movement
Feb 2001
time: 00:27
  Old Post 02-02-2005 09:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
I'm actually for this program. The best way to prevent people from bothering to build deep hardened structures is to make sure everyone knows we can bust them any time we feel like it.


Technically, according to international law, nukes could only be employed if there were no civilians near the bunkers that could be effected. I know how high a regard the US has for international laws, but at a certain point, we are reliant on the rest of the world, and breaking the laws concerning nuclear weapons would bring harsh penalties upon the US.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
King
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Sep 2001
time: 21:27
  Old Post 02-02-2005 09:05
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The beauty of this argument is that we end up not having to use the bunker busting nukes. That argument is the very knowledge that we can destroy these hardened structures means foreign governments are much less likely to spend the billions of dollars needed to construct them to begin with.

VJ is offline VJ
Prince
Helsinki
Dec 2001
time: 07:27
  Old Post 02-02-2005 10:17
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Nukes
Hippies and terrorists opposing this

Ben Kenobi is offline Ben Kenobi
Emperor
McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:27
  Old Post 02-02-2005 11:07
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Isn't anyone going to answer DD's very pertinent question?

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
Apolyton Duke of Off-Topic

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The City State of Noosphere, CPA special envoy
May 1999
time: 13:27
  Old Post 02-02-2005 13:52
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These concerns are just as valid.

Pekka is offline Pekka
Chieftain
em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:27
  Old Post 02-02-2005 14:01
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Well this is how I see it. Nukes are nukes and the whole idea of them is to get rid of them. Anything else is warmongering. In the name of self defense, your momma, I don't care.

It's like the torture. Some people seem to be defending these issues and blur the lines. But it's really simple, and remember when you get nuked/tortured, you were for it.

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
Apolyton Duke of Off-Topic

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The City State of Noosphere, CPA special envoy
May 1999
time: 13:27
  Old Post 02-02-2005 14:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Pekka
Well this is how I see it. Nukes are nukes and the whole idea of them is to get rid of them. Anything else is warmongering. In the name of self defense, your momma, I don't care.


I'm with you, big guy

Jaakko is offline Jaakko
King
in Yellow
Jan 2000
time: 07:27
  Old Post 02-02-2005 14:57
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So, the US is the only country in the 21st century that has invaded another nation. It is also the only country that openly wants to initiate the use of nuclear weapons, even against non-nuclear targets.

Tell me again, why is the "axis of evil" such a big threat?

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
Apolyton Duke of Off-Topic

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The City State of Noosphere, CPA special envoy
May 1999
time: 13:27
  Old Post 02-02-2005 15:02
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They smell bad and look different.

child of Thor is offline child of Thor
Emperor
UK
Jan 2002
time: 05:27
  Old Post 02-02-2005 17:09
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Neo-Cons = real evil

MikeH is offline MikeH
Emperor
Ming on rakastajani
May 1999
time: 05:27
  Old Post 02-02-2005 17:16 Visit MikeH's homepage!
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How on earth did the Democrats lose to this lot.

molly bloom is offline molly bloom
Prince
Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:27
  Old Post 02-02-2005 17:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Jaakko
So, the US is the only country in the 21st century that has invaded another nation.




Do you mean outside of Africa?


Or do Rwanda and the Democratic Republic of Congo not count?

MikeH is offline MikeH
Emperor
Ming on rakastajani
May 1999
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  Old Post 02-02-2005 17:22 Visit MikeH's homepage!
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Ah well, at least they're in good company!

Sadly the UK is in there too as we invaded Iraq too.

Most unAmerican gov't ever?

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:27
Question  Old Post 02-02-2005 18:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Isn't anyone going to answer DD's very pertinent question?
It may not be pertinent but it interests me.
quote:
Or do Rwanda and the Democratic Republic of Congo not count?
They aren't real countries. Didn't you know?

GePap is offline GePap
King
of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:27
  Old Post 02-02-2005 19:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
The beauty of this argument is that we end up not having to use the bunker busting nukes. That argument is the very knowledge that we can destroy these hardened structures means foreign governments are much less likely to spend the billions of dollars needed to construct them to begin with.


Again, who cares if they spend their money building bunkers- stuff in bunkers is hardly of use.

Besides, I doubt that these weapons would really stop anyone- you redesign your bunkers, or place them bellow large cities.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:27
  Old Post 02-02-2005 20:03 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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BTW, nuke bunker busters are exceedingly dirty weapons. Despite the claims of proponents, they shoot a plume of radioactive debris into the air. After all, if the bomb can penetrate the ground, it leaves a hole, and guess where some of the explosion's gonna go.

General Ludd is offline General Ludd
Emperor
Minion of the Dominion
Aug 2001
time: 05:27
  Old Post 02-02-2005 20:13
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Why is it deemed exceptable to irradiate the earth instead of the air, anyways?

Pekka is offline Pekka
Chieftain
em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:27
  Old Post 02-02-2005 20:15
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Land can be property where as air can't be?

Then again, I bet some bastards TRY to own air. Which is BS. Land I accept, air I don't.

child of Thor is offline child of Thor
Emperor
UK
Jan 2002
time: 05:27
  Old Post 02-02-2005 20:46
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I think what we may be seeing is a first for our world. The reactions to the percieved death-throes of the first hyper-power? Or at least some desperate moves from No1 soon to be No2 as china looms large?

As i've said all along, the whole Neo-con hi-jack of your Republican party will have a rather nasty pattern to what it decides to do.

It smells just a little too desperate to me though, like they've really got caught up in their own spin/distorted view? In a way they may well hasten what they fear most and are trying to stall with their strategies, which is partially what i think they are really about - they were 'lefties' once, maybe its a grand russian plot?

Last Conformist is offline Last Conformist
King
of Calakmul
Jul 2003
time: 06:27
  Old Post 02-02-2005 21:24
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quote:
Originally posted by General Ludd
Why is it deemed exceptable to irradiate the earth instead of the air, anyways?

The radiohazards are alot more concentrated and out of the way of uninvolved people with a subterranean blast. Roughly the same reason it's, where I live at least, OK to walk around with a big axe in your hand in a forest but not on a city street.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
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  Old Post 02-02-2005 21:26 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Last Conformist

The radiohazards are alot more concentrated and out of the way of uninvolved people with a subterranean blast.


That just means you won't be able to drink the ground water for a few hundred thousand years.

Jaakko is offline Jaakko
King
in Yellow
Jan 2000
time: 07:27
  Old Post 02-02-2005 21:29
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quote:
Originally posted by molly bloom



Do you mean outside of Africa?


Or do Rwanda and the Democratic Republic of Congo not count?


You got me there. To be honest, those weren't probably the only ones I missed. However, it doesn't lessen my point any.

dannubis is offline dannubis
Chieftain
Ghent
Apr 2002
time: 06:27
  Old Post 02-02-2005 21:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Last Conformist

The radiohazards are alot more concentrated and out of the way of uninvolved people with a subterranean blast. Roughly the same reason it's, where I live at least, OK to walk around with a big axe in your hand in a forest but not on a city street.


would you be as forgiving towards a nation that would use it in your neighbourhood ?

 
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