02-02-2005 22:48									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki I don't really have anything against Dean, but do you think he would have done a better job picking up the moderates?

Kerry didn't fight back as hard as Dean would have. When you're picking someone to defend you, you want the toughest scrappy dog in your corner, not the one who seeks to be above the fray. When Kerry did attack Bush, he didn't sound like he really believed what he was saying, but just throwing together sound bites of what he thought people wanted to hear. With Dean, you knew the man's heart was in it.

	02-02-2005 22:52									#32
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I don't doubt what you say, I just question whether Dean would have been any more successful in the election.

	02-02-2005 22:53									#33
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Democrats moving farther left and Republicans moving farther right.



Any change there might be something emerge from the middle.

	02-02-2005 22:58									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki I don't doubt what you say, I just question whether Dean would have been any more successful in the election.

There's no way to know. Dean certainly would have committed his share of gaffs, but as he would have been on he offense, largely, it may not have hurt his as much as Kerry was hurt when he went on the defense.

	02-02-2005 23:07									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki I don't doubt what you say, I just question whether Dean would have been any more successful in the election.

Hello? Kerry lost the election. Winning was not possible. The Dems sold out for nothing.

	02-02-2005 23:10									#36
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The only reason the Republicans have been doing well in the congressional elections since '94 is becase the republicans are using wedge issues like gay marrige to get the vote the religious progessives (socially conservative, economically liberal). My generation is the most socially liberal ever, so the social conservatives are fighting a loosing battle.

Dean:

	02-02-2005 23:16									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Hello? Kerry lost the election. Winning was not possible. The Dems sold out for nothing.

In which case thinking Kerry would play better to the moderates wasn't necessarily wrong, was it?

And for what it's worth, winning was not only possible, it should have been a near certainty. Just an absolutely brutal campaign on Kerry's part.

	03-02-2005 00:27									#38
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So there are four candidates:

Dean: Moderate (yes, moderate) Vermont Governor turned Pres candidate whose de-centralized campaign in every state (DFA has a large following in Texas, for instance) and elegant articulation of left-wing values helped to revolutionize Democratic campaign finance, and his new organization Democracy for America is still quite strong. His campaign is to reform the DNC: by properly framing and articulating progressive politics, by placing more control in the hands of the grass roots and net roots, by running a permanent campaign in all 50 states (like the RNC does), rather than a nine month campaign in a handful. It is not about left vs. right; rather it's about reforming the Democratic Party or continuing to lose. He's by far the frontrunner with almost all of the committed votes - 38% of the total vote (he needs 50% + 1 to win).

Roemer: Former Congressman of 9/11 Commission fame who has has the backing of the establishment - Pelosi and Reid. He's quite conservative - isn't pro-choice, is for privatization of SS, etc., so he has virtually no traction among the DNC electors. He's also staunchly anti-reform. He has 1% of the vote.

Rosenberg: Another moderate reformer like Dean, his organization, the New Democratic Network, is an outgrowth of the DLC. The NDN ran Spanish language ads in places like Colorado, which were apparantly quite successful. His platform is similar to Dean's, with a stronger emphasis on building the infrastructure for creating and broadcasting a message. He's probably the smartest of the bunch, but isn't as good a speaker (and thus spokesman) as Dean. OTOH, he doesn't have half of the country thinking he's a left-wing loony. I'd be happy with him winning too. He's at 1% as well.

Fowler: Son of DNC bigwig of the same name, and a grass roots organizer, he's embraced a reformist message too. But he was involved with some scandal as Michigan Kerry campaign coordinator, which recently hurt him, and his stature seems to young to be chair (despite being as old as Rosenberg). He's probably better than McAuliffe, but I don't want him to win. He's running a distant second at 3%, now that Frost has dropped out.

Supposedly Roemer and Rosenberg will drop out very soon.

Last edited by Ramo on 03-02-2005 at 00:36

	03-02-2005 00:34									#39
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Dean ran Vermont in a very Centrist manner. He's not on "the left" of the party. He's mainstream.

Don't confuse anti-Bush feelings for far left-wing ideology.

	03-02-2005 00:38									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki And for what it's worth, winning was not only possible, it should have been a near certainty. Just an absolutely brutal campaign on Kerry's part.

I disagree with you. We have 1 and a half parties in the US. The least we could do is go back to having two. Who wants a half a party to be in power. Dems will never win trying to be repugs, unless a guy like Clinton comes along every election.

	03-02-2005 00:39									#41
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara There's no way to know. Dean certainly would have committed his share of gaffs, but as he would have been on he offense, largely, it may not have hurt his as much as Kerry was hurt when he went on the defense.

It seems to me the Rebublicans would have successfully painted him (rightly or wrongly) as being "too left" and he would've had to spend a whole lot of time defending or countering that. But like you say, there's no way to know.

	03-02-2005 00:43									#42
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They'd have painted whomever they were running against as "too left." The difference is that Kerry didn't go on the offense until a month and a half before the election, Dean would've done that from the start (indeed, he had been doing that from the start).

	03-02-2005 00:51									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I disagree with you. We have 1 and a half parties in the US. The least we could do is go back to having two. Who wants a half a party to be in power. Dems will never win trying to be repugs, unless a guy like Clinton comes along every election.

Do you really think Kerry ran as good a campaign as he could or that Bush was the second coming of Regan? From where I stand, Kerry's campaign was awful and he still didn't lose by much.

	03-02-2005 09:07									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Dean ran Vermont in a very Centrist manner. He's not on "the left" of the party. He's mainstream. Don't confuse anti-Bush feelings for far left-wing ideology.

He's farther left than average for a Democrat, but just barely. Anyone with the idea that he represents the far left is mistaken.

	03-02-2005 09:10									#45
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Finally, the Democrats can put the "opposition" back into an opposition party.

	03-02-2005 09:15									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki Do you really think Kerry ran as good a campaign as he could or that Bush was the second coming of Regan? From where I stand, Kerry's campaign was awful and he still didn't lose by much.

Like I said, he's no Clinton, not that I'm a Clinton fan at all, but the liberals who keep voting for these moderates might as well change their strategy.

	03-02-2005 09:17									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Jaguar He's farther left than average for a Democrat, but just barely. Anyone with the idea that he represents the far left is mistaken.

I'd say he differentiates himself from the right. Certainly he isn't a left winger, but Kerry was just a spineless copycat flip flopper.

	03-02-2005 09:20									#48
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Dean isn't afraid of admitting it when he takes a leftist stance, but I wouldn't consider him left of Kerry at all.

	03-02-2005 09:24									#49
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Yeah, he is more vocal about disagreeing even though his policies aren't as liberal as Kerry's.

That would make him appear to be more leftist.

	03-02-2005 09:24									#50
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Ted Striker knows his stuff.

	03-02-2005 09:27									#51
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What policies of Kerry's are so leftist?

	03-02-2005 09:29									#52
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State-funded abortions and the like. And I think he's fiscally left of Dean.

	04-02-2005 12:13									#53
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Wouldn't "The beginning of the end of the Democratic Party" have been a more appropriate title for this thread?

	04-02-2005 23:49									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious What policies of Kerry's are so leftist?

none of them, but Rove successfully made people think Kerry's healthcare plan was governement run health care.

	04-02-2005 23:53									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I made a statement. Screw these "populist" schmucks! I want highly intelligent, well read, cultured (call them elitists if you want) Presidents!

Like Nixon!

	05-02-2005 00:13									#56
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Like Nixon!

Imran should have specified, "not evil"...

unless that's what he wants.

	05-02-2005 02:58									#57
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I was at the latest DNC convention, and I must say, that in terms of a articulated and concrete plan for reform of the party, Rosenburg excelled. Because of this, my chapter of College Dems endorsed him, and we may get our state board to follow suite (we'll work that out this weekend). However, from listening to what Dean had to say, and from briefly lobbying him, I can say that he is not likely to engender the civil war that Republicans like to think he will conjure up in the Democratic rank and file.
It may come as a surprise to some that Dean is, as has been said before, rather to the center of Kerry. He actually supports a number of state's rights positions, and has an A+ rating from the uber-liberal organization, the NRA. His sense of "leftness" comes from his tendency to not compromise on the issues that he does oppose the Republicans on, and as Bush tries to lead that party to the right, this will increase. I think that this stance will actually draw in supporters. For too long, the Democrat party has been seen as a party of whiners, people who complain that the Republicans are "breaking the rules," but don't really do anything about it. With Dean as DNC chair, we will see that change. We will see committment to fight for teh values of the center-left, and people will be heartened.
However, the role of the DNC chair is really primarily to bring money into the party, and to create a stronger party infrastructure. Given Dean's success with Democracy for America, and his foray into the hitherto-untapped resource of online fundraising, I think that he'll be very successful in both years.
Above, it was mentioned that Dean might retake the House. He will not do that. However, I think that in 2006, we will see gains for the Democrats, maybe even significant gains. There is still hope for the Democratic party, and maybe now, we'll start to do what the Republicans have been doing for the past thirty years.

	05-02-2005 03:19									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Admiral I was at the latest DNC convention, and I must say, that in terms of a articulated and concrete plan for reform of the party, Rosenburg excelled. Because of this, my chapter of College Dems endorsed him, and we may get our state board to follow suite (we'll work that out this weekend). However, from listening to what Dean had to say, and from briefly lobbying him, I can say that he is not likely to engender the civil war that Republicans like to think he will conjure up in the Democratic rank and file. It may come as a surprise to some that Dean is, as has been said before, rather to the center of Kerry. He actually supports a number of state's rights positions, and has an A+ rating from the uber-liberal organization, the NRA. His sense of "leftness" comes from his tendency to not compromise on the issues that he does oppose the Republicans on, and as Bush tries to lead that party to the right, this will increase. I think that this stance will actually draw in supporters. For too long, the Democrat party has been seen as a party of whiners, people who complain that the Republicans are "breaking the rules," but don't really do anything about it. With Dean as DNC chair, we will see that change. We will see committment to fight for teh values of the center-left, and people will be heartened. However, the role of the DNC chair is really primarily to bring money into the party, and to create a stronger party infrastructure. Given Dean's success with Democracy for America, and his foray into the hitherto-untapped resource of online fundraising, I think that he'll be very successful in both years. Above, it was mentioned that Dean might retake the House. He will not do that. However, I think that in 2006, we will see gains for the Democrats, maybe even significant gains. There is still hope for the Democratic party, and maybe now, we'll start to do what the Republicans have been doing for the past thirty years.

Extremely well said.

	05-02-2005 03:22									#59
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Well said, but I don't think we'll see tangible gains for the Democrats until 2008. '06 will be about even, possibly with minor Republican gains. Dems have weak Senators up especially.