02-02-2005 22:06									#1
	NHL Lockout: The Owners New Plan Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I'm very impressed by this plan. Sounds like the owners are actually coming up with real, fair solutions. The ball is now in the player's court.

quote: League's proposal includes $42M salary cap -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ESPN.com news services The NHL and the players' association plan to meet Wednesday in New York, with league representatives expected to make an offer that will include a salary cap system, ESPN has learned. With the clock's ticking growing ever louder, the league sent a memo to teams outlining its latest ideas. This week's proposal, much of which already has been disclosed informally to NHLPA leaders, would include a salary cap with a minimum of $32 million and a max of $42 million but likely would not include an individual cap of $6 million, according to a New York Daily News report. The plan also is expected to require profit sharing, with a 50-50 split of money over a figure to be determined, although speculation has put it at at least $100 million. The league also wants to make salary arbitration a two-way street, giving teams as well as players the right to exercise that option. Opinions differ as to whether a luxury tax -- a league no-go thus far -- could be on the table. The Daily News reports that the formal proposal won't include a luxury tax, but former Canucks president and general manager Brian Burke told the Toronto Star that the two sides "will discuss a luxury tax." Only Bill Daly, the NHL's chief legal officer, and outside counsel Bob Batterman were expected to represent the league, while NHLPA senior director Ted Saskin and attorney John McCambridge will take part for the players' association. Trevor Linden, the players' association president, New Jersey Devils president and general manager Lou Lamoriello, and Harley Hotchkiss, the chairman of the NHL board of governors, are not expected to be part of Wednesday's meeting after sitting in last week. For the fifth time in two weeks, the sides will meet without commissioner Gary Bettman and union chief Bob Goodenow. Wednesday's meeting will be the first face-to-face talks since last Thursday, when the sides wrapped up a two-day meeting that started in Toronto. The NHL brought up ideas during that session that didn't sit well with the players' association. Speculation is that a deal must be done this week -- or next week at the latest -- to salvage the current season. The philosophical differences that existed between the league and the players on Sept. 16 -- the first day of the lockout -- are still there 4½ months later. Linden, a Vancouver Canucks center, came up with the idea two weeks ago to hold meetings without Bettman and Goodenow. The hope was that it would spur open discussions and lead to a deal that would save the season from completely slipping away. Through Tuesday, the 139th day of the lockout, 756 of the 1,230 regular-season games and this year's All-Star game had been lost. Information from The Associated Press was used in this report.

	02-02-2005 22:24									#2
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That's interesting. I've never heard of a profit-sharing arrangement before in a pro sports league, certainly not any of the big four. That could really hold some sway amongst the lower-paid players though the top tier might not like it.

I don't see anything about owner revenue auditing, which I see as an absolute necessity in order to start building some trust between the two sides, along with league-imposed sanctions on owners who try to cook their books. The players should view that as a "must have" if they're going to be asked to swallow the salary restrictions.

	02-02-2005 22:26									#3
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quote: I've never heard of a profit-sharing arrangement before in a pro sports league, certainly not any of the big four.

The NFL has had one for over a decade.

	02-02-2005 23:02									#4
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How many games would they play if they started the season this year? It wouldnt be very good hockey, imo, because they would likely have an abbreiviated training camp, if any at all, and many players would be obligated to play elsewhere, or be out of shape maybe..

	02-02-2005 23:08									#5
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Let them play in Europe for a fraction of what they would make here under a new arrangement. I look forward to the displaced Europeans playing in the NHL next year.

The NHLPA howls of protest will make me giddy.

	02-02-2005 23:09									#6
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One of the biggest problems with starting the season now is the rather large and currently untouched free-agent market. Getting all that settled would take some time.

Likely doesn't matter, though. I can't see this latest proposal going through. It's still very much a cap, so either the players completely capitulate or no dice.

	03-02-2005 01:03									#7
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Hey, what a shock - the NHLPA rejected the offer.

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Co...tacodalogin=yes

quote: Players reject latest NHL offer Union wants Goodenow and Bettman to get involved tomorrow CANADIAN PRESS The NHL Players’ Association rejected the NHL’s latest proposal today but didn’t close the door on labour talks. In fact, the union asked for a meeting tomorrow, this time with NHLPA executive director Bob Goodenow and NHL commissioner Gary Bettman present. There was no immediate word on the league response to the proposed meeting. “The league today presented a written proposal with minor variations of concepts that were presented orally by the NHL last Thursday,” NHLPA senior director Ted Saskin said in a statement. ``We told the league last week and again today that their multi-layered salary cap proposals were not the basis for an agreement. “Given the status of negotiations, the NHLPA suggested that the parties meet again tomorrow with Bob Goodenow and Gary Bettman joining the meeting.” Today’s meeting in Newark, N.J., began just after 10 a.m. EST and wrapped up around 2 p.m. EST. The NHL turned up the heat by releasing details of its new proposal. As expected, it includes a salary cap linking revenues and player costs. By releasing details of the proposal, the NHL no doubt hopes to put pressure on the players to accept it. Or at least pressure the NHLPA executive to put it to a vote. The league’s offer included a new component in a profit-sharing plan between players and clubs. The players and owners would share the profits 50-50 after a certain profit threshold is reached. The highlights of the league proposal: — The deal would cover six full seasons, including 2010-11 with a “unilateral right granted in favour of the union to re-open the agreement after the fourth full season;” — A league-wide fixed link guaranteeing that player costs won’t take up more than 55 per cent of total revenues; that’s up from 54 per cent in the league’s Dec. 14 offer. — A “floating team payroll range” — with a base of $32 million US and a top limit of $42 million although that would be ``adjusted every year to reflect changes in league-wide revenues.” In other words, the fixed link between player costs and league revenues takes precedence over the $42-million figure. — The maintenance of guaranteed player contracts although the league wants to limit deals to no more than three years in term; that’s something the players won’t like at all. — A revised salary arbitration system which allows both players and teams to elect the process; the league had totally abolished the system in its Dec. 14 offer. Under this offer, all restricted free agents could elect. Under the old CBA, only certain restricted free agents could go to arbitration. — A proposed reduction in the age for unrestricted free agency from 31 to 30, “with a possible further reduction to age 28 (tied to salary arbitration).” This is a key point: the league maintains the right to abolish the entire arbitration system “at any time during the term of the agreement” by dropping the UFA age to 28. The players won’t like this. — A revised entry level system which extends to four years although it allows for some performance bonuses and “which incorporates an additional league-wide bonus structure for outstanding performance on a league-wide basis.” That’s a step in the players’ direction after taking away all bonuses in Dec. 14 offer. — A 62 per cent increase in the league’s minimum salary to $300,000 per year. — The use of a payroll tax on clubs within the floating team payroll range “at the union’s sole discretion.” Why would the union want a tax on top of a cap? — The union’s offer of 24 per cent across-the-board salary rollback for all remaining years of all existing contracts is accepted by the league. — A profit-sharing plan to which the players would share in ``league profitability over a negotiated level on a 50-50 basis.” — The implementation of a jointly monitored accounting and audit function, with multimillion-dollar fines, and forfeited draft choices — the penalty for failure to disclose required financial information. This is a giveback to the players, with teams fined $2 million and losing their first-round pick for first offence and getting nailed with $5-million fine and loss of three first-round draft picks for second offence. — The establishment of a joint owner-player council to discuss various business and game-related issues. The union wanted this in its Dec. 9 offer. — Plans for a shortened regular season this year with a full playoff, but splitting some revenues from the post-season to ``ensure that the players receive the agreed-upon 53 per cent of league revenues.”

	03-02-2005 01:59									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui The NFL has had one for over a decade.

Think I misunderstood, then. I read it as profit sharing between the owners and the players, not NFL-like profit sharing which just occurs between the owners.

	03-02-2005 03:37									#9
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what are nhl players doing in the meantime?

	03-02-2005 03:40									#10
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Let's bring on the scrubs.

That's an awesome deal the owners offered, revenue sharing, a la the NFL, plus the right to arbitration.

	03-02-2005 04:40									#11
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the NHL is dead... stick a fork in it.

	03-02-2005 10:24									#12
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Yep... I fear so, Sava.

	03-02-2005 20:01									#13
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Luckily in Philly we also have an AHL club - the Phantoms. Its not the NHL, but it is good for a hockey fix once in a while.

	04-02-2005 02:37									#14
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Maybe in the US.

But we will always have Hockey here in Canada. Maybe not NHL hockey, but whoever plays here will be considered professionals.

	04-02-2005 02:40									#15
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NHL offer was the first positive step I've seen from them yet.



NHLPA was right to reject it, but at least the owners are now demonstrating that they're willing to negotiate in good faith, something the players have been doing from the start.

	04-02-2005 02:42									#16
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In Chicago, we have the AHL Wolves. They've been in the playoffs 3 out of the last 4 cheers. Their entire ad campaign is about how they win... basically laughing at the fact that NHL Black Hawks don't...

I think this is the first year the Wolves have lost more games than the Black Hawks

	04-02-2005 05:07									#17
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse NHL offer was the first positive step I've seen from them yet. NHLPA was right to reject it, but at least the owners are now demonstrating that they're willing to negotiate in good faith, something the players have been doing from the start.

My thoughts exactly. Who knows? They might actually get a deal out of the latest round of "last-minute" talks...

	04-02-2005 05:09									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Sava the NHL is dead... stick a fork in it.

I for one hope so.

	04-02-2005 05:18									#19
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why do they even submit proposals, if it has a cap the PA will say no, if it dosen'tthe owners will.

	04-02-2005 05:27									#20
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Because maybe they hope at some point they can have the NHL not die a horrible, horrible death?

Loved to have seen this proposal win out, but I guess that was asking too much.

	04-02-2005 05:34									#21
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Rumor has it that one of the owners has told the press that they are going to call the season officially dead on Friday. It could be a great ploy to get the players to accept a salary cap... but more likely the truth. The players haven't figured out yet that it's a cap or nothing... but they are about to find out

	04-02-2005 06:11									#22
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Well it's not like they can really have a season anymore anyway. Hockey won't do well as a summer game .

	04-02-2005 06:22									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Well it's not like they can really have a season anymore anyway. Hockey won't do well as a summer game .

Indeed.

Besides, considering the way discussions have gone so far, they'll need all the time they can get in order to reach an agreement for next season...

But I do miss the hockey. No minor league teams around here.

	04-02-2005 06:28									#24
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What's really silly is... I PREDICT

Once they call the season, all talks will stop. And the next talks won't begin again until the end of the summer. The owners are going to make the players sweat it out. And in the end, the players will have to accept a salary cap.

So this season will have been missed, and the players will gain NOTHING!

	04-02-2005 08:26									#25
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What about the possibility of replacement players?

The NHLPA does not own the franchises. Comes a point they either go to work or they lose their jobs.

	04-02-2005 08:28									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Because maybe they hope at some point they can have the NHL not die a horrible, horrible death?

pfft.

Nobody is gonna replace the Bruins, the Leafs, or the Canadians... anytime soon.

The owners hold the hammer... if it goes that far.

	04-02-2005 08:29									#27
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither What about the possibility of replacement players? The NHLPA does not own the franchises. Comes a point they either go to work or they lose their jobs.

Scabs are forbidden in some provinces.

Edit: silly me , it's a lock-out, not a strike.

	04-02-2005 08:33									#28
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Yeah, I wonder about that.

The position of the owners is that they can't survive under the expired CBA. The players refuse to accomodate the major demand of the owners.

At some point in time the courts have to take the side of the owners and allow the franchises to get on with business, don't they?

	04-02-2005 20:04									#29
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Yeah, I wonder about that. The position of the owners is that they can't survive under the expired CBA. The players refuse to accomodate the major demand of the owners. At some point in time the courts have to take the side of the owners and allow the franchises to get on with business, don't they?

As I understand it, they are legally entitled to use 'replacement' workers next season - hence my earlier post.

While I would prefer to see the true professionals playing again, I do not want to see a bad deal signed in order to make it happen. The problems with the league need to be solved. If the players refuse to understand this, then so be it.

As for the 'scabs' issue...

Am I supposed to feel sorry for highly paid NHLPA members going to Europe and displacing the hard working players on those teams? Hell no! Let's have those displaced players come here and take the NHL'ers jobs and see how they like it.

	04-02-2005 22:22									#30
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^ No, the NHL has to get an impasse declared in negotiations before they can legally use replacement players. And they have to do it in all jurisdictions (the USA, Ontario, Alberta, Quebec, and British Columbia). Then they would have to show that the NHLPA has bargained in bad faith (conversely, if the NHLPA could show the NHL has bargained in bad faith, all sorts of bad things happen to the NHL, such as losing anti-trust exemptions).

The MLB tried this in 1995 and lost the gambit. The NFL tried and won in -- 1987? -- effectively breaking the union in the process.

However, I don't believe labour laws in Quebec or British Columbia permit replacement workers in this situtation at all, so the Montreal Canadiens and Vancouver Canucks still wouldn't be able to operate.

I'm recalling second-hand info here, and of course IANAL.