05-02-2005 20:17									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Admiral This probably proves the how much of a "liberal" I am, but I have trouble believing that this isn't a joke.

It is in a way. But it does seem, as a rule of thumb, to be generally true. I think the phraseology should be more at "pro-America and anti-American" though.

	05-02-2005 20:26									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed quote: No, there are Americans and anti-Americans. There is no middle ground. I'm just curious, what if you support America, by and large, but have issues with how the current administration is behaving? Or, if you support America in everything except, say, its policies in space, or science, or food preparation?

A lot of people seem to align themselves generally with the critics of America or the champions of America depending on whether they are the come out on the left vs. right spectrum. So long as a conservative is president, a leftist will generally criticize the US on the grounds that they are criticizing the US president.

Unfortunately, I see a tendency for the opposite to be true as well. When a liberal holds the White House, conservatives tend to be critical of every foreign policy initiative of the sitting president. I remember being very upset at the time Clinton was president, not at Clinton, but at my own party because of their narrow-minded partisanship.

There are a few on the left that seem to break out of this pattern and can actually support Bush for what he is doing on foreign policy despite disagreeing with him on other issues. Joe Lieberman comes to mind, but there are other prominent Democrats who lined up behind and continue to support Bush because of his foreign policy.

	05-02-2005 20:29									#63
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Lieberman isn't on the left, though I'm sure if he were the candidate for Prez, the GOP would certainly try and paint him as another New England liberal.

	05-02-2005 20:29									#64
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The President authorized a program that violated U.S. law. How does that not involve corruption? Glad to know you have a hero who planned to overthrow the Republic. It shows just what kind of low, down scum many Republicans are.

I appreciate your compliment.

As to the president authorizing something that violated US law, I really have no idea what you are talking about.

Please explain what Reagan did, when he did it, and how it violated US law.

	05-02-2005 20:32									#65
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Lieberman isn't on the left, though I'm sure if he were the candidate for Prez, the GOP would certainly try and paint him as another New England liberal.

Well, the former liberal mayor of New York, the name escapes me now, also backed Bush.

	05-02-2005 20:43									#66
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Except Whitewater wasn't an example of Presidential corrution, as Ken Starr showed after spending $63 million of our dollars. Nor was Paula Jones, as no corruption was involved, nor did it even occur during his Presidency (like Waterwater). You Republicans are so dishonest and petty. The country would be better off without you.

The only difference between Watergate and Whitewater is that Clinton's associates were better at stonewalling.*



*: Okay, so there were other differences, but Watergate would have been a nonissue had Nixon's people kept their traps shut.

	05-02-2005 20:46									#67
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk So we're discussing a period of thirty-seven years, twelve of which occured under Democrat presidents, and twenty-five of which occured under Republican presidents. In that time frame, we have: Watergate Iran-Contra Whitewater Paula Jones Abu Garib How does Abu Garib qualify as presidential corruption?

White Water was all just Republicans crowing over nothing and you know it. That's why NOTHING ever came out of it. Who went to jail? Who was even arrested? No one because nothing happened worth arresting anyone over.

Watergate & Iran-Contra were absolutely huge frauds. People did go to jail over those ones but not nearly enough people. Paul Jones was just poor white trailer trash digging around for money and in any event if Clinton ran around on his wife that hardly merits mention compared to selling cocaine and guns, lying to Congress, purjury, and the literally dozens of other crimes Reagan commited during Iran-Contra nor does it compare to the criminal abuses of Watergate nor does it compare to authorizing the use of torture.

Just face facts. Republicans are traditionally the party of corruption and, for Ned, I will define corruption as blatantly illegal and criminal activity.

	05-02-2005 20:48									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Republicans are traditionally the party of corruption.

On a national scale. Both parties are plenty corrupt at the state level.

	05-02-2005 20:49									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Ned As to the president authorizing something that violated US law, I really have no idea what you are talking about. Please explain what Reagan did, when he did it, and how it violated US law.

He sold arms to an enemy of the United States that we were actively fighting, Iran. In the Constitution, we have a word for that. It's called treason.

	05-02-2005 20:52									#70
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I am utterly amazed that some people don't seem to know the depths of the true crimes commited in Watergate & Iran-Contra. I am at a complete lose for words.

	05-02-2005 20:52									#71
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk The only difference between Watergate and Whitewater is that Clinton's associates were better at stonewalling.*

There is no evidence that the Clintons did anything illegal. Even if they had done something, it was before he became President, while he was Governor. Unlike Nixon, who committed his crimes as President.

	05-02-2005 20:53									#72
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara nor did it even occur during his Presidency (like Waterwater).

What's Waterwater? Have I missed some news stories?

	05-02-2005 20:59									#74
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Thirsty, Che?

	05-02-2005 21:07									#75
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quote: How do we get back to the days where our biggest concern was executive blowjobs? I liked that world better.

The anti-semite Republicans probably only made a fuss about that because she was Jewish (before they got their "we love Israel" thing [i.e. when the Apocalypse comes God will sort out those kikes, but for now we need them to fulfil the prophecy]).

On the latter point. It speaks volumes that the Israeli government should support an American party whose most fanatical supporters want to see God set fire to all the Jews that don't start crying Jesus.

	05-02-2005 21:42									#76
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara He sold arms to an enemy of the United States that we were actively fighting, Iran. In the Constitution, we have a word for that. It's called treason.

Idiot.

The "scandal" was about what happened to the money.

	05-02-2005 21:43									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I am utterly amazed that some people don't seem to know the depths of the true crimes commited in Watergate & Iran-Contra. I am at a complete lose for words.

I know about Watergate and agree Nixon had to go.

I strongly disagree about Iran Contra. Here, I agree that North was the hero and the Dems in Congress were the criminals.

	05-02-2005 21:45									#78
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk The only difference between Watergate and Whitewater is that Clinton's associates were better at stonewalling.* There is no evidence that the Clintons did anything illegal. Even if they had done something, it was before he became President, while he was Governor. Unlike Nixon, who committed his crimes as President.

Well, he did lie under oath. The major problem with this is not so much that he was president, but that he was a lawyer. This is why, I believe, Starr was so made at Clinton.

As to his lies to the American people and his staff about Lewinsky, I understand that and never held it against him.

	05-02-2005 21:47									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: How do we get back to the days where our biggest concern was executive blowjobs? I liked that world better. The anti-semite Republicans probably only made a fuss about that because she was Jewish (before they got their "we love Israel" thing [i.e. when the Apocalypse comes God will sort out those kikes, but for now we need them to fulfil the prophecy]). On the latter point. It speaks volumes that the Israeli government should support an American party whose most fanatical supporters want to see God set fire to all the Jews that don't start crying Jesus.

Lewinsky was Jewish?

	05-02-2005 21:59									#80
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quote: Lewinsky was Jewish?

	05-02-2005 22:16									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Ned The "scandal" was about what happened to the money.

So, selling weapons to a regime that called for the destruction of America is all kinky by you?

	05-02-2005 23:14									#82
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Ned, Reagan was knee deep in the whole Iran-Contra affair at least if you believe Oliver North who I admite is a known perjurier and felon. The Reagon administration needed to raise money to help fund the anti-communist Contra movement in Central America but the Congress passed laws limiting the export of weapons and the giving of US tax payer money to known mass murders and drug dealers. Thus was born the plan to help the Contras sell Cocaine in order to raise money while selling weapons to Iran (who was in the middle of a war against Iraq). Both the trafficing in Cocaine and the sales of weapons were illegal and all the funds were given to the Contras who had the nasty habit of executing just about everyone who disagreed with them.

This is all well documented and was in the final Congressional report.

	05-02-2005 23:15									#83
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Ned, I didn't know you hated america so much.

Ollie North is a traitor, he gave aid and comfort to our enemies (Iran). That is defined as treason by the Constitution.

	06-02-2005 00:17									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist So, selling weapons to a regime that called for the destruction of America is all kinky by you?

Reagan apparently was trying to get diplomatic relations with the Ayatollah back to normal. Regardless, the president is in charge of foreign relations and what he does is not "traitorous."

	06-02-2005 00:20									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Ned, Reagan was knee deep in the whole Iran-Contra affair at least if you believe Oliver North who I admite is a known perjurier and felon. The Reagon administration needed to raise money to help fund the anti-communist Contra movement in Central America but the Congress passed laws limiting the export of weapons and the giving of US tax payer money to known mass murders and drug dealers. Thus was born the plan to help the Contras sell Cocaine in order to raise money while selling weapons to Iran (who was in the middle of a war against Iraq). Both the trafficing in Cocaine and the sales of weapons were illegal and all the funds were given to the Contras who had the nasty habit of executing just about everyone who disagreed with them. This is all well documented and was in the final Congressional report.

Reagan authorized the sale of weapons to Iran. Nothing was said about what to do with the proceeds. Ollie himself testified that using the money to fund the Contras was his bright idea.

Obviously, we differ on the Contras. They were former regime elements that were conducting a resistance to a communist takeover. Something like Iraq. But since they were resisting communism, it was right for us to back the Contras.

	06-02-2005 00:22									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Odin Ned, I didn't know you hated america so much. Ollie North is a traitor, he gave aid and comfort to our enemies (Iran). That is defined as treason by the Constitution.

Bull. Ollie had nothing to do with the decision to sell weapons to Iran. That was Reagan. Ollie used the weapons money to fund the Contras. What he did was "unauthorized." Still, Ollie was right.

	06-02-2005 00:47									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Reagan apparently was trying to get diplomatic relations with the Ayatollah back to normal. Regardless, the president is in charge of foreign relations and what he does is not "traitorous."

Except Congress and Carter had already signed sanctions laws against Iran outlawing the sale of Arms. There were export controls in place and Reagan arranged to illegally sell arms to a country which has all official government sessions start and end with the chant "death to America".

On the Contras let us leave out the politics for one moment and forget the death squads. Even if we ignore politics is it right for people in the employment of the US government to fly cocaine into the US to raise money for the Contras? They were flying US owned planes and the pilots were paid by our government. That's government run drug smuggling which Reagan, North, and Bush Sr all kknew about. North was the one who set it up because he wanted to help the Contras raise money.

That's just plain criminal.

	06-02-2005 00:53									#88
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I am a moderate Republican — socially moderate, fiscally conservative — so my conscious is clear. I voted a split ticket in November — some Republicans, some Democrats, all people I figured had their heads screwed on straight. Bush was not among the Republicans I voted for.

If there had been a viable third-party candidate at any level (local, state, national), I likely would've given him or her a shot ... but that pretty much a desert this time around. Perhaps they'll have more of a presence in future elections.

Am I a "bad" Republican? If it means liking John McCain, Olympia Snowe and other level-headed folks, then you're damn right I'm bad. Down to the core bad. If it means giving Medicare the ability to negotiate for the prices it pays for prescription drugs, then, hell yes, I'm a twisted, evil bad Republican. If it means calling Bush's bluff when it comes to Social Security "reform" — oh, yes, I just want to "take a chance" with private investment that, given the current formula, might mean I take home a supplemental monthly check of $50 to $200 a month after retirement in addition to the SS check (but don't tell anyone that the SS check would be cut by a corresponding or greater amount) — then count me in as a "bad" Republican.

Damn blog has it right. The reactionaries have taken over — and not just in the good ole USA Republican Party, IMO — and woe to the world for what's to come. The meek shall indeed inherit the Earth ... but before a third of humanity lies dead.

*cough* Eh, yes, a bit of pessimism there. It happens after you've been a "bad" Republican for awhile.

Gatekeeper

	06-02-2005 01:02									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Reagan apparently was trying to get diplomatic relations with the Ayatollah back to normal. Regardless, the president is in charge of foreign relations and what he does is not "traitorous."

I do not believe I've used the word "traitorous" ...

You did not answer my question. Is it, according to you, acceptable that a US president sells weapons to a regime that calls for the destruction of America?

	06-02-2005 01:58									#90
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Screw elephants and donkeys...


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