05-02-2005 04:29									#1
	I've never seen this before.... Increase Your PM Length

Ok - I've played a lot of civ, both sp and pbem's. I've never encountered this before. Has anyone else?

Attachment: bab1.jpg
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	05-02-2005 04:30									#2
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And after starting the first turn...

Attachment: bab2.jpg
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	05-02-2005 04:32									#3
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Oh yes - btw. Huge map. 16 civs. Emperor or Monarch - can't recall. Pangaea - 80% water.

	05-02-2005 04:40									#4
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And weirder yet...

As the Babs I have to settle on that spot before the Greeks do. So I build Babylon - and lookee here.

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	05-02-2005 04:47									#5
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Has to be something seriously wrong. I play the first turn. The French settle right next to my border - which I understood the AI would never do. And they mysteriously have a warrior. Could be a very quick game. And the Greeks never moved. Me thinks this game may be corrupted from the start. Any idea on how this happens?

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	05-02-2005 04:57									#6
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3750 bc. The greeks never move, but they trade alpha for c-burial and 7 gold. Hello??? A chines warrior then wandered in last turn, and I traded alphabet for masonry. On turn 5, I capture the Greek settler and worker. Very bizarre.

Attachment: bab5.jpg
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	05-02-2005 05:42									#7
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Hit him with the shovel!!!

Ohhh....

Very weird, never seen anything like it, including the French ICS move. Did you demand that the Greeks leave?

	05-02-2005 06:04									#8
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At Monarch or above the AI should start with troops. At least warriors, the number and types vary per level and civ.

I have not seen that at a map that large.

	05-02-2005 06:12									#9
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Well, it should make for a VERY quick game Beta!

	05-02-2005 07:19									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Hit him with the shovel!!! Ohhh.... Very weird, never seen anything like it, including the French ICS move. Did you demand that the Greeks leave?

Did I ask them to leave. No. Partially because I was still in a state of shock, and secondly because I expected them to move. I suspect the start-up was bugged up somehow, and once the Greek settler ended up in within my borders - there is no AI logic to get it to move. That is probably what led the French to settle where they are. Fom this - I suppose one can conclude that the AI settles on whatever tile they start on, rather than moving to a more favourable position at the cost of a few turns.

	05-02-2005 07:29									#11
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Ok - is after dinner and I play a few more turns. I look at the histograph and the Greeks have respawned. And in 3400 they show up with a hoplite and two warriors. What gives?

And I was thinking of taking Paris. Silly me. Be lucky to hold Babylon now. This is a truly warped game.

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	05-02-2005 07:30									#12
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I've seen this, but only on pre-generated maps with little land where there wasn't enough room for the # of civs that was set.

Looks horribly bugged to me.

And, as vmxa said, where were the extra starting units??

	05-02-2005 07:53									#13
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This was a straight-forward single player start. And it gets better. I manage to hold off the Greek attack with warriors and eventually a bowman which triigers my GA. Oh joy. I build more bowmen, and an one of my early attacks, he is upgraded to elite, and soon after he kills a Greek bowman and we get a leader. So here is Agnum in Babylon. I can never tell whether I got a military or scientif GL. I always forget to notice what they say. So I move them to a city to see what to build. Ends up Agnum cannot rush the pyramids, cannot build an army, and cannot rush military units. He can rush walls which would take 2 turns to build anyway.

I'm tempted to play this one out to see what other surprises are in store. Then again - it is a bit frustrating. If any one wants the 4000bc start save, send me a pm. I tried to load it here, but the save file is too big.

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	05-02-2005 08:00									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Kloreep And, as vmxa said, where were the extra starting units??

The extra units do not come, until they found their first city. In a respawn they will get the bonus units with the founding of the city. It is considered the first one again.

	05-02-2005 08:34									#15
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Can't wait to see how this game pans out.

quote: I suppose one can conclude that the AI settles on whatever tile they start on, rather than moving to a more favourable position at the cost of a few turns.

Yep, always settles on the first turn nomatter what.

	05-02-2005 08:35									#16
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quote: If any one wants the 4000bc start save, send me a pm. I tried to load it here, but the save file is too big.

Even if you zip it?

	05-02-2005 09:31									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Beta So I move them to a city to see what to build. Ends up Agnum cannot rush the pyramids, cannot build an army, and cannot rush military units. He can rush walls which would take 2 turns to build anyway.

Being a MGL, he should be able to build an army once you reach 4 cities. 1 down, 3 to go.

	05-02-2005 14:24									#18
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Hey, it's a great start. Finally, you get to see the cradle of civilization in Civilization. Everyone on top of each other.

@the shovel

	05-02-2005 17:58									#19
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Hehe you should have let those Greeks stand there paralyzed next to Babylon and wipe them off the map once you have obtained a solid territory.

Are you running any mods? Perhaps a change somewhere freaked out the program...

And I thought that low land mass continents on a standard size map with 7 players was cramped!

	05-02-2005 19:35									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Kloreep Being a MGL, he should be able to build an army once you reach 4 cities. 1 down, 3 to go.

Ah that explains it. Did not realize there was a restriction. Thanks.

	05-02-2005 19:40									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Grim Legacy Hehe you should have let those Greeks stand there paralyzed next to Babylon and wipe them off the map once you have obtained a solid territory. Are you running any mods? Perhaps a change somewhere freaked out the program... And I thought that low land mass continents on a standard size map with 7 players was cramped!

Yes - that would have been a wiser plan. I was not aware of the respawning implications - and I guess somewhere in my mind I envisioned them being re-spawned on a 3 tile island down near Antarctica.

Nope - no mods. Well, let me re-phrase that. I am involved in a pile of pbems, many of which are conquests, and some which involve mods. But this game was started from the main screen in a normal manner.

	05-02-2005 22:41									#22
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Such crowded games make me sweat. It's good for attacking, but these .jpgs gives me a new definition of "close".

Ever considered sorrunding Paris with Babilonian cities? The leader could rush a settler (what a waste of leader, of course).

	05-02-2005 23:53									#23
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AI is programed to found the first city on the spot.
Your on Monarch level. So Warrior is busy escorting the Settler which it self MUST found a city in place because it's the first one, but currently can not because cities may not be founded next to each other.

On Emperor level, that would have been a very quick loss because the other extra unit would have be free to attack you.

This is the first time I've ever seen the AI start adjoining you, but I have seen the AI two tiles away and the French did exactly what happened in those games.

quote: Originally posted by Beta Has to be something seriously wrong. I play the first turn. The French settle right next to my border - which I understood the AI would never do. And they mysteriously have a warrior. Could be a very quick game. And the Greeks never moved. Me thinks this game may be corrupted from the start. Any idea on how this happens?

	05-02-2005 23:57									#24
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That would have broken the AI deadlock, it would be forciably moved outside your cultural boundary and found it's city on that spot.

The other time I saw AI dead lock was in Conquests 1.0 playing the Mesoptaian one as Egypt. A Phoenican worker was building a road obviously intended to form a colony. When I move a military unit onto that 1 tile choke point, the Phoenican worker finished it's action on the current tile and then stoped right in place for several turns! It did not move until I moved my military unit of the one tile choke point.

quote: Originally posted by Theseus Very weird, never seen anything like it, including the French ICS move. Did you demand that the Greeks leave?

	05-02-2005 23:59									#25
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That is normal for a game with AI respawn on for such an early wipe out. Respawned AI civs are granted some extra units.

quote: Originally posted by Beta Ok - is after dinner and I play a few more turns. I look at the histograph and the Greeks have respawned. And in 3400 they show up with a hoplite and two warriors. What gives? And I was thinking of taking Paris. Silly me. Be lucky to hold Babylon now. This is a truly warped game.

	06-02-2005 00:03									#26
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How interesting. That's even worse than the 4 tiles between our capitals in the Random Random PBEM.

	06-02-2005 00:35									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Beta Yes - that would have been a wiser plan. I was not aware of the respawning implications - and I guess somewhere in my mind I envisioned them being re-spawned on a 3 tile island down near Antarctica. Nope - no mods. Well, let me re-phrase that. I am involved in a pile of pbems, many of which are conquests, and some which involve mods. But this game was started from the main screen in a normal manner.

Well you know what they say about hindsight... easy for me to comment!

I found out about the unit bonus upon respawning in overly ambitious early ancient era campaigns. Instead of that imagined but fitting arctic location, the hated enemy tends to respawn just a bit further on the map, with an abundance of fresh recruits!

	06-02-2005 00:50									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Rhothaerill How interesting. That's even worse than the 4 tiles between our capitals in the Random Random PBEM.

Thanks for that bit of intel, Rhoth!

actually, i already knew that

	06-02-2005 03:59									#29
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This is very interesting - I hope you play it out and keep us posted, Beta!

	06-02-2005 05:59									#30
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Looks like a massively unlikely RNG fluke.