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Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:27
  Old Post 06-02-2005 00:15
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quote:
Originally posted by DanS
Is that $60k a starting salary? If not, then that's not very good wages, especially in California. Over time, they won't get the good programmers.

I'm inclined to leave this to the industry to figure out.


These are kids direct from school, which makes the salary not that bad. Apparently, they keep the staff young by using the killing hours. The combo is very cynical, since they don't even pay straight time for the extra hours.

LDiCesare is offline LDiCesare
King
La Ferté sous Jouarre France
Jan 2001
time: 05:27
  Old Post 06-02-2005 00:15
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Not paying their employees is already bad, but what's really stupid is that they stress them so much and make them work when tired, and that doesn't get good software produced. They would probably get as good games if they spent less time coding but more time really managing their projects, as the author points out.
The problem in my opinion is that those people in charge of development of games are in a young industry that still has a lot to learn in terms of project management and quality insurance. They think they can compensate lack of quality by adding quantity of work and fail to realize they are actually hurting themselves.
I wish I had bookmarked the story of a prorammer who said he had had a good manager on his game project, and there was another project that started at the same time. His manager managed to get the game made andout in time. The twin project was late, so the manager had to ask for extra hours, extra work, got late, but finally managed to get the project out (late) because she spent lots of work (both hers and her team). She was rewarded by the firm, as the top management siad: "Look, she's a good manager, she'll spend extra hours to get her project out." Obviously, she was the bad manager since the other one, on a similar project, had managed to get his project faster and with less stress for everyone involved. But executives always think people who work more work better, which is not necessarily true.

DanS is offline DanS
Emperor
Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:27
  Old Post 06-02-2005 00:17 Visit DanS's homepage!
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It might be a cynical approach, but it's not like the kids don't get something out of it. They get good experience and a solid jumping off point on their resume.

If they didn't get something out of it, then I would expect them to not work there in the first place or quit once they figure out what's going on.

The same thing happens with the management consultants.

Oncle Boris is offline Oncle Boris
Prince
Once in a brown moon
Aug 2001
time: 00:27
  Old Post 06-02-2005 00:25
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quote:
Originally posted by DanS
If they didn't get something out of it, then I would expect them to not work there in the first place or quit once they figure out what's going on.


Yeah sure...

DanS is offline DanS
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Kickball Capital of the World
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  Old Post 06-02-2005 00:26 Visit DanS's homepage!
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Uh huh...

alva is offline alva
Emperor
Republic of Flanders
Sep 2001
time: 06:27
  Old Post 06-02-2005 00:34
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..or become complete burn-outs before even reaching 30.

Long hours

DanS is offline DanS
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Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
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  Old Post 06-02-2005 00:36 Visit DanS's homepage!
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Have you done long hours, alva?

Ted Striker is offline Ted Striker
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United States of America
Jan 1970
time: 21:27
  Old Post 06-02-2005 00:41 Visit Ted Striker's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by DanS
It might be a cynical approach, but it's not like the kids don't get something out of it. They get good experience and a solid jumping off point on their resume.

If they didn't get something out of it, then I would expect them to not work there in the first place or quit once they figure out what's going on.

The same thing happens with the management consultants.


Sometimes it's not that easy, DanS.

Maybe they didn't realize what they were getting into and have mouths to feed.

You make it sound like people can just jump around and get a new job any time they want to.

Enough with the corporate whoring.

alva is offline alva
Emperor
Republic of Flanders
Sep 2001
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  Old Post 06-02-2005 00:50
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quote:
Originally posted by DanS
Have you done long hours, alva?


I have worked in kitchens for about a decade and though the work itself was extreemly intensive. (I'm talking adrenaline overdose here), in general we were always - with few exceptions - to get the job done withing normal-ish hours.

If you're good at your job, you can do - and certainly long term - as much in 6 hours than you can do in 10.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
King
of Internet Music.
Sep 2001
time: 21:27
  Old Post 06-02-2005 01:04
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Got spare money?

I'd definately want to jigger around with the over time laws a bit in order to better define who is exempt and who isn't. Just enough to discourage abusing employees but not so much these companies just fire everyone and move to India.

Ted Striker is offline Ted Striker
Emperor
United States of America
Jan 1970
time: 21:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
I'd definately want to jigger around with the over time laws a bit in order to better define who is exempt and who isn't. Just enough to discourage abusing employees but not so much these companies just fire everyone and move to India.


It's a slippery slope for sure, and hard to balance.


I can see the corporate side of it, they have built in a competitive advantage by using all these exempt rules to get people to work 2 jobs for each person. That doesn't make what they have done right, but they have built a system that depends on that.

On the other hand it creates retention problems, and destroys the quality of life for alot of workers.

DanS is offline DanS
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quote:
You make it sound like people can just jump around and get a new job any time they want to.


They can. People move around once every couple of years, on average. This isn't the Soviet Union, after all.

Ted Striker is offline Ted Striker
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United States of America
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okay DanS

I don't know what world of privilege you live in.

DanS is offline DanS
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Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:27
  Old Post 06-02-2005 01:29 Visit DanS's homepage!
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Well, I work in the legal industry. There's lots of movement at every level of the organization. I've been in my job for about 7 years and am one of the grey beards. Now, such movement may be unfamiliar to people from some other countries, but I expect you have seen the same thing in your industry.

Commy is offline Commy
King
St. Louis, MO, USA
Mar 2004
time: 05:27
  Old Post 06-02-2005 02:14
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All I can say is...

WELCOME TO A FREE MARKET

I do feel sorry for them, but they did choose the job. Unfortunately for us, EA is the largest gaming company, so it won't be moving anytime soon, and even worse, it indirectly own civ and SMAC...god save us all...

monolith94 is offline monolith94
Emperor
New England
Jan 1970
time: 00:27
  Old Post 06-02-2005 02:43 Visit monolith94's homepage!
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I hope the bastards pay. Through.the.nose.

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:27
  Old Post 06-02-2005 03:16
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Prediction: The case settles and EA agrees to pay straight time for required overtime.

johncmcleod is offline johncmcleod
Prince
Coeur d'Alene, ID, USA
Jan 2002
time: 21:27
  Old Post 06-02-2005 07:28 Visit johncmcleod's homepage!
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What EA did is horrible, however, what these employees had to go through happens to people all over the world, and instead of programming they're doing hard manual labor. This will always happen in a system where those who are in control of production are motivated by profit.

Capitalism

:) Smiley is offline :) Smiley
Emperor
USCA, Berkeley
Feb 2001
time: 21:27
  Old Post 06-02-2005 12:57 Visit :) Smiley's homepage!
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Part of the reason US companies would rather work one person 70 hours versus 2 people 35 hours is the large cost of benefits that companies provide, such as healthcare. Until we get a national healthcare system here, working hours and unemployment are going to keep rising.

LDiCesare is offline LDiCesare
King
La Ferté sous Jouarre France
Jan 2001
time: 05:27
  Old Post 06-02-2005 15:24
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quote:
Part of the reason US companies would rather work one person 70 hours versus 2 people 35 hours is the large cost of benefits that companies provide, such as healthcare.

That shouldn't be an issue. In France, the sirms probably pay more to healthcare than in the States, but it's proportional to the salary, and then goes into a pool. If you employ 2x35h or 1x70, it costs the same.
There are some moronic laws that don't help, though. I know a bartender in Boston who once explained me he paid taxes based on the number of his employees. No matter that they were mostly students doing part time, so a 48h employee was in fact very much better than 3 16 hours employees (which was rather the norm). This encourages to make a high number of hours for absolutely no good reason. I don't know if these taxes are (were?) only in the Massachussets or something federal.

I also want to add that programmers don't have to work that long hours even the U.S (from what I know of my colleagues who program over there). It's the game market that seems to demand it, and I think it's in part due to the fact the managers are too young to know how to manage a project properly. Making extra hours is seen as "working hard", and that's generally seen as a good thing. But in fact wen programming, working when tired usually just loses time and increases the number of bugs. A good manager is one who gets the job done in time, but a praised manager is the one who managed to squeeze a lot of work out of his team, no matter that he did a worse job at keeping delays than the 'good' manager. That's a real problem in this field: Quantity is often preferred over quality because, especially in terms of management, it's easier to measure and see.

MRT144 is offline MRT144
Chieftain
Seattle Washington
Oct 2002
time: 21:27
  Old Post 06-02-2005 15:30
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i hear all this *****ing about EA's game quality, but are you seriously telling me that they shouldnt release madden every year? are you guys really idiots?

secondly, everyone has teh right to walk away from a job that they dont like. no one is forcing this on them.

Alexander's Horse is offline Alexander's Horse
Deity
Panmunjon, hands up!
Jan 1970
time: 15:27
  Old Post 06-02-2005 16:04 Visit Alexander's Horse's homepage!
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Dan is just saying out loud all the things he tells himself

I have worked long hours and I had led teams working long hours and I can tell you it is counter productive.

Over time illness and morale problems emerge and productivity drops. An employee putting in a good 8 or 9 hours a day, 5 days a week is better than an employee putting in 12 hours a day even 7 days a week over the long term.

Of course if you can replace losses, its not such a problem and this is what EA is exploiting. Lose a game developer? A 100 more apply to take their place.

When supply and demand for programmers gets into balance these work practices will be unsustainable because people will walk and won't be easy to replace. But as the article points out, with places like India and Russia coming online, that point may be a long way off.

Proteus_MST is offline Proteus_MST
Prince

Dec 2001
time: 06:27
  Old Post 06-02-2005 16:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
Over time illness and morale problems emerge and productivity drops. An employee putting in a good 8 or 9 hours a day, 5 days a week is better than an employee putting in 12 hours a day even 7 days a week over the long term.


Yeah,
that´s the Problem with overworking programmers.

It is easy for a programmer to create bugs,
much much easier to find and fix them.
If you let a programmer work 3 hours more a day
and it takes him 2 hours per day to fix the additional bugs he creates because of the stress being caused by regularly working overtime, it doesn´t sound to me like a efficient use of his abilities as programmer (and, if you pay the programmers regular wages for the time he works overtime, it would even be more costly than to hire more programmers at the start of the project [a thing, of course, which doesn´t apply to EA, as they obviously didn´t even pay the employees for the time they worked overtime ])

DanS is offline DanS
Emperor
Kickball Capital of the World
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  Old Post 06-02-2005 23:48 Visit DanS's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
Dan is just saying out loud all the things he tells himself


Are you kidding? I get 1.5x overtime and that's what I remind myself whenever I'm working late.

I've seen both sides of the coin. One case was managed well and we worked 80-90 hour weeks at crunch time. One case was managed poorly and we worked 90-100 hour weeks at crunch time. We put together a world-class package for the first and a less great package for the second. In neither instance was a 40-50 hour work week realistic.

In both instances, it took more than a half year to decompress after crunch time. However, there was a great deal of compensating satisfaction at a job well done in the first instance. As you may know, you store up stress during crunch time and deal with it during decompression. If the results of the crunch time are something you can be proud of, then that helps you decompress with less negative consequences.

The other thing to mention is that the amount of stress has a big impact on the effectiveness of your work. Working long hours increases stress. If the project is poorly managed or you have a co-worker who is screwing up and making your job more difficult, then the stress is increased drastically, and it becomes tough to cope with the total. Further, there are some instances when a 60 hour work week is quite doable and others when a 60 hour work week is a killer, for instance.

Last edited by DanS on 07-02-2005 at 00:21

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
King
of Internet Music.
Sep 2001
time: 21:27
  Old Post 06-02-2005 23:55
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Got spare money?

In the US you normally get 1.5x for hours over 40 in a week and 2x if you work over 50 or if you work on a Sunday. At least that's the way it is for 8-5 jobs which work Monday through Friday.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
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  Old Post 07-02-2005 01:19 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by DanS
I'm inclined to leave this to the industry to figure out.


Of course you are.

MarkG is offline MarkG
Grand Lord of Apolyton, Owner of all this land as far as the eye can see

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Jan 1970
time: 07:27
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quote:
EA Los Angeles Cuts Staff in Restructuring

According to multiple reports, 60 developers at Electronic Arts' Los Angeles studio were let go today in a restructuring-related layoff. The staff members were pulled from the various projects at the LA offices, rather than being confined to one or two specific teams; Neil Young, overseer of the LA studio, was careful in his statement to dispel the rumor that the layoffs were related to sales performance of EA LA's GoldenEye title in late 2004.

"It has nothing to do with GoldenEye or titles we've shipped in the past and a lot more to do with where we want to take this studio in the future," said Young in a statement to consumer site 1UP.com. Instead, Young emphasized the need to reconsider the amount of staff employed as the overall company prepares for next-generation systems, such as the successor to the Xbox expected to be unveiled soon. "It's a studio-wide thing to reset the business fundamentals and get the studio to the next level."

Whether this return to "fundamentals" means the cutbacks at the LA offices will soon be replicated in EA's other studios such as Canada, Tiburon, and Redwood Shores, was left unsaid. However, the LA studios have hardly been gutted, with 320 staffers remaining to continue the EA Trax, EA Publishing, and EA mobile gaming divisions in addition to console development.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
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  Old Post 07-02-2005 03:24 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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They should unionize and strike.

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:27
  Old Post 07-02-2005 03:28
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quote:
Originally posted by johncmcleod
What EA did is horrible, however, what these employees had to go through happens to people all over the world, and instead of programming they're doing hard manual labor. This will always happen in a system where those who are in control of production are motivated by profit.

Capitalism


John, it also happens in Cuba.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
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  Old Post 07-02-2005 03:29 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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No it doesn't.

 
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