06-02-2005 08:07									#1
	of Hanging Gardens and the Walls of Babylon Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Micha asked if we should build the Hanging Gardens and suggested that we need walls. here is the thread to discuss that.

My thoughts:
If we are going for Historic accuracy yes - get the HG if possible. I think walls are a no brainer. YES. Wall up every city.

Would the HG be too obvious to the other teams and does it matter?

	06-02-2005 17:18									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

It´s not a wonder I would die for in my games, so I think - if we get to build it - the other teams won´t take that as a threat to their existence. (Unlike Pyramids, Temple of Artemis etc.)

So I definately vote Yes!

Attachment: babylon5.jpg
This has been downloaded 27 time(s).

	06-02-2005 19:59									#3
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Actually - I am a huge fan of the hanging gardens, particularly in a game where luxury resources are scarce.

As to walls - well, I will argue we only need to build them where necessary. I often find the core cities don't need them as the frontier cities are the front-line defence. And in the event disaster befalls us 0 we can build them quickly as need be.

	07-02-2005 04:35									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I do like walls. But I can see where you strategy has merit. Use the Gold and effort to build more units and more cities. Once the core is built add walls on the frontier.

Sounds good.

	07-02-2005 05:46									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Oh I didn´t mean this strategy-wise; I was rather referring to roleplay. We should build city walls in Babylon, because that very city was famous for it´s inpenetrable defenses for quite a long time...

I know it´s nonsense ingame and thus I didn´t hope for this suggestion to get through, but I wanted to issue it anyways.

	07-02-2005 20:52									#6
	Support Apolyton

I prefer for my buids to make in-game sense.

I'm not saying that HG doesn't, but it's impossible to tell if it would make sense at this point, and quite early, given that we need Monarchy to build HG.

A more immedate question is are we interested in building Colosus if there's a suitable costal city near us. It only costs 200 shields.

	10-02-2005 06:17									#7
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I agree with joncnunn: let us build what is stratigically wise.

Colosus is out for us IMHO: I do not see coast for a first ring city and better river one. Otherwise, it will be too long to build it.

SoZ is the most important to decide. It is stock, right? So: 200 shields, what are AC stats 3/2/2 +1HP (as for SP) or 3/1/1 +1 HP (as for MP)? we need to think about pre-build naturally Pyramids or Palace (masonry, it might be traded); and when actually research Math.

Nobody will trade us Math unless SoZ built, everybody has ivory and cow; Dominae told that somewhere.

Edit:
-------
Since it is my first MP-game, my words have to be taken with a grain of salt

1. We should not tie up more than 1 city for wonder buildings
2. It should be wonders that we are mostlikely to get

Prioroities:
1. SoZ (cheap and very important)
2. Oracle since we religious and will build chep temples: they better be 2 happy faces
3. HG unless we get monarchy before completion of Oracle then we should obviously go for HG instead of Oracle.

I would not try ToA as religious Civ.
Pyramids only if we can get capital or nearby city to a very good size/production and not at expence of SoZ. We can capture Pyramids with SoZ I feel that building them might be a hazard of becoming a target for agression.
GL should be careful about GA if we have any Rel wonders, plus with cheap libraries there are not as much push to get it. However well planned even despotic GA might be very very good.
GW is nice, but I would not go nuts about it
Lighthouse next to useless (if I remember correctly we are 60% pangae): barbarian proof water trade it is all we get worthwhile

Last edited by pvzh on 10-02-2005 at 06:37

	10-02-2005 07:00									#8
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I agree 100% that wonder builds have to make in-game sense.

That being said, I still like the hanging gardens.

The SoZ is looking good.

And I have always liked the Oracle.

Wonders are often not a priority in demo games, other than GL builds. We will have to weigh the costs and beenfits of the expense of a wonder build versus other possibilities.

	10-02-2005 07:32									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

GL-builds? What do you mean? Great Library or Great Leader (scientific ones)

HG make a lot of in game sence since we are researching towards Monarchy and it is relatively late A. Era, so 300 shields are easier to afford.

	10-02-2005 08:58									#10
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by pvzh GL-builds? What do you mean? Great Library or Great Leader (scientific ones) HG make a lot of in game sence since we are researching towards Monarchy and it is relatively late A. Era, so 300 shields are easier to afford.

Great leader builds. Demo games are very competitive in terms of expansion and growth and many teams are reluctant to sacrifice the infrastructure and military builds necessary for a wonder build. Unless a GL (scientific in C3C), is set to do it.

	10-02-2005 20:14									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Is this stock rules, AU Mod 1.07, or an AU Multiplayer Mod?

Easy check between stock and the others is checking how many turns needed for SoZ once we have a city connected to Ivory.

And wasn't there a discussion about banning SoZ?

We are Scientific and get a 5% chance on any given tech that no one else has when researched and each time is an indepedent trial, so don't count on geting them for a given wonder. SGL can also be safely stored without losing the chance of another SGL. (They would however interfere with getting a MGL)

Ancient era and middle age wars are much more common in MP games than on SP ones.

	14-02-2005 00:51									#12
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I agree we shouldn't build walls unless it makes sense to do so in border cities. Better to instead build a spear/bowman or half a barracks, in most cases.

Hanging Gardens may be useful, but we'll have to see. Researching Monarchy if you aren't going to use the government is expensive.

Pyramids are great if you have luck with the start (see: Tabemono, PTWDG2 ) but I've lately downgraded their power in my own book. With enough good food pumps, you don't need a granary in every city. I'd say we should assume we won't be building them, though that could always change.

Oracle I tend to ignore since it expires so early. Hanging Gardens, despite its greater cost in shields and research, is much better IMO.

	14-02-2005 06:10									#13
	Got spare money?

Not going to use monarchy?
Why´s that? Of course we´ll use monarchy!!!

	14-02-2005 09:15									#14
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Micha Not going to use monarchy? Why´s that? Of course we´ll use monarchy!!!

Ah - the Monarchy vs Republic debate. This I will like to see.

	14-02-2005 09:20									#15
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Beta Ah - the Monarchy vs Republic debate. This I will like to see.

On such a small map, I'd agree we can't switch to Rep immediately. Whether we should use our Rel trait to hop from Feudalism to Rep, though, is another matter.

	14-02-2005 20:07									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Lots of Rivers so far -> Monarchy looking better than Fedualism

And yes, since we are religious we can first be Monarchy and later Republic.