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Aqualung71 is offline Aqualung71
Emperor
Lord Desolator of the Desolation Row, C3CDG
Oct 2002
time: 12:26
  Old Post 07-03-2005 12:49
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Ahem. I have not visited a bar for many a moon. At least 3 days actually! (not counting the 3 Weeds!)



And in any case, nobody from my team trusts me to conduct diplomatic negotiations of any kind. That's why we elected Moonbars

Paddy the Scot is offline Paddy the Scot

Prince
Hordeland
Mar 2001
time: 14:26
  Old Post 07-03-2005 15:17 Visit Paddy the Scot<br><a href=/members><img src=/forums/images/inmate-icon.gif border=0></a><BR>'s homepage!
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indeed... like we believe ya old salt

Moonbars is offline Moonbars

King
Glasgow
Aug 2002
time: 05:26
  Old Post 07-03-2005 18:08 Visit Moonbars<br><a href=/members><img src=/forums/images/inmate-icon.gif border=0></a><BR>'s homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Beta


This is when a demo game starts to bog down. Another team will now ask for similar extensions, quoting the precedent established by DR. And the next thing we know - we have a game that comes to a crawl and folks lose interest.

Sorry to be a pain Aqua, I had just hoped this game would be different.


We got the save at 3:11 am Saturday morning. It is going to be at least 6 hours before I wake up. Assuming playing Civ3 is the first thing I do on a saturday morning, which I will admit it often is, I might have been able to play this turn on time. What would have happened if we'd got the turn a few hours earlier, we'd almost have missed the time slot already.

McMeadows is offline McMeadows
King
right here, right now
Mar 1999
time: 06:26
  Old Post 07-03-2005 18:19 Visit McMeadows's homepage!
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Assign a back-up player.... And you're not expected to sleep for 12 hours indeed...

Moonbars is offline Moonbars

King
Glasgow
Aug 2002
time: 05:26
  Old Post 07-03-2005 19:05 Visit Moonbars<br><a href=/members><img src=/forums/images/inmate-icon.gif border=0></a><BR>'s homepage!
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that's not the point. the point is that *it's not long enough to make any democratic decisions*

We could easily assign players to process the save at various junctures around the clock, but that would be a normal Single player PBEM not a Demogame. Sometimes, things come up and you have to stop to make group decisions. There are things you don't expect to happen that happen, no amount of order giving or pre-turn discussion can handle those.

McMeadows is offline McMeadows
King
right here, right now
Mar 1999
time: 06:26
  Old Post 07-03-2005 19:09 Visit McMeadows's homepage!
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Which should be able to be solved in 24 hours max... You might not get the opinion of the whole team, but a majority must have had an opportunity to speak up.

PLATO is offline PLATO

King
Of the occupied South
Dec 2002
time: 23:26
  Old Post 07-03-2005 19:13
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quote:
Originally posted by McMeadows
Which should be able to be solved in 24 hours max... You might not get the opinion of the whole team, but a majority must have had an opportunity to speak up.


24 Hours should be sufficient for most any case. Beyond that, I think, should be a very rare exception indeed.

Aqualung71 is offline Aqualung71
Emperor
Lord Desolator of the Desolation Row, C3CDG
Oct 2002
time: 12:26
  Old Post 07-03-2005 19:15
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quote:
Originally posted by McMeadows
Which should be able to be solved in 24 hours max... You might not get the opinion of the whole team, but a majority must have had an opportunity to speak up.


Some teams have 10 players, so a majority is 6. 6 opinions within a space of 12 hours, or even 24 hours?

Difficult

McMeadows is offline McMeadows
King
right here, right now
Mar 1999
time: 06:26
  Old Post 07-03-2005 19:21 Visit McMeadows's homepage!
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Not that way...
You wake up, open the save, note your point of discussion, post in private forum and wait untill the end of the day. You can complain about democracy, but you wanna slow down to the commitment of the 50% least committed people in your team. We agreed upon relatively fast play. Maybe sometimes you have to make a decission on your own, or with little input, chief... And then you'll have to explain to the team what kinda mistake you made...

PLATO is offline PLATO

King
Of the occupied South
Dec 2002
time: 23:26
  Old Post 07-03-2005 19:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Aqualung71


Some teams have 10 players, so a majority is 6. 6 opinions within a space of 12 hours, or even 24 hours?

Difficult


But doable for sure...assuming that your players are involved of course. And if not, then certainly a majority of "active" players could be obtained. At 24 hours a team it would take 6 days to play a turn...certainly long enough to plan for most eventualities.

Beta is offline Beta

Deity
Prowling in a PBEM near you!
Nov 2002
time: 00:26
  Old Post 07-03-2005 19:38 Visit Beta<br><a href=/members><img src=/forums/images/lifer-icon.gif border=0></a><BR>'s homepage!
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Aqua and Moonbars - you have clearly raised the point in question.

Do we allow the game to slow down every time a team feels it needs to make a democratic decision? (and given the early point we are in this game - you can be guaranteed there will be many more)

OR

Do we set a time limit and teams need to find a way to function within that time limit?

To me this requires about 1 nanosecond of thought.

Each team clearly needs to find some way of empowering its leadership/player to make that decision, or discuss potential scenarios in advance, or establish a guiding set of principles, or as has been suggested, establish a time limit on voting, and whoever signs in and makes the vote within the time period, go with that, or whatever.

If you wait for a majority of players to show up, you will be wasting everyone's time. Unless your team is very unique, I suspect you will find a core of keeners, and folks who fade in and out of the game, and some who lurk. Babylon has already based a number of early decisions on the votes of only 3 players.

Again - not trying to be difficult here, or pick on your team. Just trying to paint the bigger picture - which is the health of the entire game.

Last edited by Beta on 07-03-2005 at 19:46

Moonbars is offline Moonbars

King
Glasgow
Aug 2002
time: 05:26
  Old Post 07-03-2005 20:29 Visit Moonbars<br><a href=/members><img src=/forums/images/inmate-icon.gif border=0></a><BR>'s homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by McMeadows
Not that way...
You wake up, open the save, note your point of discussion, post in private forum and wait untill the end of the day. You can complain about democracy, but you wanna slow down to the commitment of the 50% least committed people in your team. We agreed upon relatively fast play. Maybe sometimes you have to make a decission on your own, or with little input, chief... And then you'll have to explain to the team what kinda mistake you made...


No, that is not true.

You wake up, the first thing you do before going to work, having a shower, etc - you load the save, you note that it's already been 8 hours since the save arrived in your inbox, just after u went to bed.

Now you have 4 hours to post your plan for the next move. But.. you have to play the save right then and their or miss work. Shock-horror - the rest of your team is in a different timezone and is asleep or at work - 12 hours doesn't work.

Nothing to do with commitment, it's just impossible. Unless we are all unemployed or can play at work, or don't sleep.

The Discussion is the FUN part. I can just go and play a normal PBEM if I want a fast game with lots of turns.

We have 6 members. 2 Europeans and at least 2 possibly 3 in the Far East / Pacific timezone. I assume trip is American. It is very possible most of our team will miss a chance to contribute.

I will admit things have been better since beta managed to get my E-Mail address right

Moonbars is offline Moonbars

King
Glasgow
Aug 2002
time: 05:26
  Old Post 07-03-2005 20:32 Visit Moonbars<br><a href=/members><img src=/forums/images/inmate-icon.gif border=0></a><BR>'s homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Beta
Again - not trying to be difficult here, or pick on your team. Just trying to paint the bigger picture - which is the health of the entire game.


The health of the Demo Game is much better when there is some actual DEMO element in it.

Ljube is offline Ljube
Emperor
Belgrade
May 2003
time: 06:26
  Old Post 07-03-2005 20:54
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I don't know about your group Moonbars, but I can tell you how these things are arranged in our Horde. We discuss all possibilities in advance, so when the save comes to our inbox we simply play. The minute we send the save discussion about future actions begins.

And we also tend to set long term goals and guidelines so we don't have to debate every turn about every move of our every unit.

McMeadows is offline McMeadows
King
right here, right now
Mar 1999
time: 06:26
  Old Post 07-03-2005 21:18 Visit McMeadows's homepage!
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Like I mentioned before, Snoop takes up the save if I miss it in the evening. He either can play and send the turn or initiate unforseen discussions, which I then can take in account when I play/ finish the turn before work.

Beta is offline Beta

Deity
Prowling in a PBEM near you!
Nov 2002
time: 00:26
  Old Post 07-03-2005 22:43 Visit Beta<br><a href=/members><img src=/forums/images/lifer-icon.gif border=0></a><BR>'s homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by McMeadows
Like I mentioned before, Snoop takes up the save if I miss it in the evening. He either can play and send the turn or initiate unforseen discussions, which I then can take in account when I play/ finish the turn before work.


That's a good approach. We need to implement something like this on Team B. So far we have been OK with the receipt and timing.

Beta is offline Beta

Deity
Prowling in a PBEM near you!
Nov 2002
time: 00:26
  Old Post 07-03-2005 22:47 Visit Beta<br><a href=/members><img src=/forums/images/lifer-icon.gif border=0></a><BR>'s homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Moonbars


The health of the Demo Game is much better when there is some actual DEMO element in it.


Understood Moonbars. Understood. I think we are merely questioning how the democracy gets implemented. I appreciate the challenges of different time zones - in fact - one of our major contributors is European. But I do think there are other approaches to team dynamics and democracy that will work.

Moonbars is offline Moonbars

King
Glasgow
Aug 2002
time: 05:26
  Old Post 07-03-2005 23:30 Visit Moonbars<br><a href=/members><img src=/forums/images/inmate-icon.gif border=0></a><BR>'s homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Ljube-ljcvetko
I don't know about your group Moonbars, but I can tell you how these things are arranged in our Horde. We discuss all possibilities in advance, so when the save comes to our inbox we simply play. The minute we send the save discussion about future actions begins.

And we also tend to set long term goals and guidelines so we don't have to debate every turn about every move of our every unit.


we are and have been doing this. What I am saying is that sometimes there is *very* limited time available for *any* of our team to look at the save before it gets sent on, and if something *unplanned* turns up, it's stupid to force the game to go on before we have a chance to at least let all our members know what is going on.

You cannot possibly discuss *all* possibilities in advance. sometimes u get a random happening.

Aqualung71 is offline Aqualung71
Emperor
Lord Desolator of the Desolation Row, C3CDG
Oct 2002
time: 12:26
  Old Post 08-03-2005 10:36
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Just a little reminder....

Please stop posting relevant and informed comments in this thread....this is the drivel thread.

Krill is offline Krill
Emperor
On a cold wet rock, in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean.
Dec 2003
time: 05:26
  Old Post 08-03-2005 14:08
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We can play the save today, but we will need a little more than 12 hours (close to 16 hours).

McMeadows is offline McMeadows
King
right here, right now
Mar 1999
time: 06:26
  Old Post 08-03-2005 14:59 Visit McMeadows's homepage!
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I'll be available from 21:00-22:30 GMT, so that suits me well...

Paddy the Scot is offline Paddy the Scot

Prince
Hordeland
Mar 2001
time: 14:26
  Old Post 11-03-2005 02:42 Visit Paddy the Scot<br><a href=/members><img src=/forums/images/inmate-icon.gif border=0></a><BR>'s homepage!
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this quote from the turn traker thread...

quote:
Originally posted by Aqualung71
Bugger, I must have sent you our turn by mistake.

Sorry, but I won't be able to resend until I get home from work in about 10 hours time


so was the save sent then?

mart7x5 is offline mart7x5
King

Sep 2002
time: 22:26
  Old Post 11-03-2005 03:04
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still waiting. I wrote Aqualung71, waiting for the answer

Paddy the Scot is offline Paddy the Scot

Prince
Hordeland
Mar 2001
time: 14:26
  Old Post 11-03-2005 03:14 Visit Paddy the Scot<br><a href=/members><img src=/forums/images/inmate-icon.gif border=0></a><BR>'s homepage!
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Thanks Mart

ahhh yet another great delaying tactic from the Desolation Row...

apart from boring all the players away from the game... I do not see much benefit for taking 48 hours every two turns

mart7x5 is offline mart7x5
King

Sep 2002
time: 22:26
  Old Post 14-03-2005 00:08
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What would you think about the following new rule. Actually I do not know, if that rule was once valid in civ demo games, but saves might be in addition to sending via regular email, posted for download in "turn tracking thread". They might be later removed, let us say three turns later, just to save server space.

This possibly would solve problems of lost emails, detached attachments by automatic virus removal tools, lost in bulk email folders, etc...

snoopy369 is offline snoopy369

Emperor
Of the Peanuts Gallery
Apr 2004
time: 23:26
  Old Post 14-03-2005 00:36
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I don't like posting saves ... not that this game has the same ... issues ... the other games did, but it still leaves too large of a possibility of ... issues.

I would just like to see the various teams figure out how to send the emails to the right people ... set up a distribution list or something, it's not that hard, is it?

Krill is offline Krill
Emperor
On a cold wet rock, in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean.
Dec 2003
time: 05:26
  Old Post 14-03-2005 01:50
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Euphorica, have you recieved the save yet?

Krill is offline Krill
Emperor
On a cold wet rock, in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean.
Dec 2003
time: 05:26
  Old Post 14-03-2005 01:58
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I take it you got it this time...

McMeadows is offline McMeadows
King
right here, right now
Mar 1999
time: 06:26
  Old Post 14-03-2005 02:20 Visit McMeadows's homepage!
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Didn't receive anything... I see Snoopy has played the save in the mean time... Hope to be included next time...

Krill is offline Krill
Emperor
On a cold wet rock, in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean.
Dec 2003
time: 05:26
  Old Post 14-03-2005 02:26
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MCM, you mail is:

Last edited by Krill on 14-03-2005 at 02:33

 
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